Negative Hit Point effects

[jsbrewster1]

Hi all,

I'm trying to learn the GURPS rules by running some mock combats of various sorts. One question I have is about negative hit points. Unless I'm missing something, there are NO combat penalties for being in negative hit points, as long as you succeed in the HT roll to stay awake, and aren't suffering from a previous Stun. Is this correct?

Thanks.

[AlexanderHowl]

No, you are at 1/2 Basic Speed and Basic Move, and you must roll HT every turn to stay conscious.

[jsbrewster1]

But do either of those directly affect your ability to swing a sword, shoot a gun, kick an opponent? I ran a combat, one opponent was at -12 hit points out of 11, so a total of 23 damage, but still able to fight normally, with an HT of 12 he made his consciousness roll every time. It just seems like there should be a more significant penalty for going into negative hit points.

[JMason]

Originally Posted by jsbrewster1

But do either of those directly affect your ability to swing a sword, shoot a gun, kick an opponent? I ran a combat, one opponent was at -12 hit points out of 11, so a total of 23 damage, but still able to fight normally, with an HT of 12 he made his consciousness roll every time. It just seems like there should be a more significant penalty for going into negative hit points.

Also note that at -12 HP, the roll to stay conscious is 11 (-1 per full multiple of HP below zero). At -22 that becomes 10, a 50% chance every turn to pass out (if taking any maneuver other than "Do Nothing").

[ericthered]

The note about putting your opponent on a timer is a good one. Unless you have ranged weapons, I can move away from you and you won't be able to close the distance. You'll eventually loose consciousness.

If ranged weapons ARE on the table, dodge becomes much more important and your dodge is now in the nether regions.

[jsbrewster1]

Hi everyone,

Thanks so much for all of the information. I have a lot more insight now as to how movement can affect combat. In my mock combat, I basically had 2 fighters toe to toe slugging it out, so to speak. But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.

I will definitely look at the effects in the Martial Arts books, and I'm already considering some house rules around repeated shock. In my combat, the injured party was kicked for at least 3 points of damage every turn for 5 rounds, but missed in the 6th round, so no penalty to his attack after that. I'd think he'd be reeling for more than 1 second after being kicked 5 times in a row.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by jsbrewster1

But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.

Only if the uninjured character chooses to come back into range, though, is the thing. If I was in a one-on-one duel, and had dropped my enemy to negative HP, I'd simply keep opening the range with them. If they keep coming after me, they'll be the one having to make Move and Attacks, with the -4 penalty, and eventually they'll fail an HT roll. And if they just stand there panting, I have time to do various things to set up my own attacks. I can Evaluate, for example, which under normal circumstances means I can get up to +3 on my next attack. That would let me eliminate the penalty for a targeted attack to the vitals or a limb, for example, which could end the fight right there. Or I could ready a ranged weapon, and just start plinking the wounded character. Or I could wait for my friends to arrive, and completely finish them off with numbers. Lots of options. The key thing to remember is that the character with negative HP is in trouble. They're going to be standing for a few more seconds, at best. If they try anything besides moving at a slow walking pace (1 yard per second), including anything that requires serious mental effort (a Concentrate maneuver is not a Do Nothing maneuver!), they'll pass out in fairly short order. If my opponent is at negative HP and I'm not, and the opponent doesn't have allies to fight instead of them, they're basically defeated, it's just a matter of time.

[JMason]

Originally Posted by jsbrewster1

But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.

That's what the Wait maneuver is for. If you can gain enough space between the enemy and yourself, then wait till they approach, attack (before they get a chance) and step back, then you are going to be keeping them away and injuring them.

Another good option is Evaluate which is allowed for any target that you can reach with a Move and Attack. If they make it into step space after a turn then all the better.

The last thing that I would purpose is that when you GM enemies... don't make them suicidal! Most people that are fighting to stay conscious are going to loose their will to fight. They will offer surrender, try to flee combat, or just collapse and feign death. Fights don't have to go on to the bitter end.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by jsbrewster1

I have a lot more insight now as to how movement can affect combat. In my mock combat, I basically had 2 fighters toe to toe slugging it out, so to speak. But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.

Remember that Move and Attack gives you a -4 penalty to hit and prevents you from parrying with the weapon you used to attack and prevents you from Retreating before your next turn.

In a duel situation like that, the unwounded fighter (call him fighter A) should have used a Move to break contact and move away from his opponent (fighter B), and then let fighter B chase after him. This sets up three options:
* If Fighter B stays still, Doing Nothing, then Fighter A can use Move maneuvers to circle around him at a distance, trying to get behind him. This forces Fighter B to either risk getting All-Out Attacked from behind, or taking some other maneuver to turn and risking unconsciousness. Even with HT 12, he's pretty unlikely to stay standing for 5 seconds.

* If Fighter B uses an All-Out Attack to close the distance and attack, Fighter A can hopefully defend against one round of attacks (he can still retreat, after all) and then try something like an attack to the vitals or face against his defenseless foe.

* If Fighter B uses a Move and Attack, he's unlikely to hit with a maximum skill of 9. Assuming the two fighters end up facing each other and Fighter B attacked with his right arm weapon, Fighter A can then All-Out Attack to step to his left and step again into Fighter B's right flank hex. Fighter A then makes two attacks, or an attack at +2 damage, or an attack to the vitals, skull, or face, and Fighter B's only defense is a Dodge - at half his normal Dodge and with another -2 penalty for an attack from the flank. Even if Fighter B is a dodgy ninja who started the fight with a Dodge of 12, he's rolling against a 4.

When Fighter B hits 0 HP, he's at an enormous disadvantage if his opponent plays it smart.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by jsbrewster1

In my mock combat, I basically had 2 fighters toe to toe slugging it out, so to speak. But if the unslowed character moves out of range of the injured character, isn't it a Move & Attack at -4 to get back into range without being attacked herself? Otherwise, they are back on even footing again, as long as the injured party keeps making HT rolls.

Remember that because GURPS combat turns are one second apiece, managing to attack an enemy for, say, another six seconds after being wounded and before passing out is actually not unreasonable. Unless you're particularly fragile, you have a decent chance of keeping up your strength for the next few seconds after taking a stab to the gut. Don't fall into the trap of thinking of other games' combat turns, which can last six, ten, or even sixty seconds each. Within seconds your wounds WILL catch up with you. Having high Health just gives you MORE seconds.