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Old 12-15-2009, 10:34 PM   #121
Rocket Man
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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Originally Posted by Molokh View Post
Is Ise Jingū, a shrine built anew every couple of decades, with new materials and all, not Ise Jingū anymore? It still is, after all those destructions and rebuildings.
Or is it? Recall the story of the woman who claimed to own George Washington's axe.

"That's the same axe he owned?"

"Oh, yes. Two new heads and five new shafts, but it's still the same axe."
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:05 AM   #122
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Default Re: Is Transhuman Space a "silly" genre?

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Well, that depends on your position on the metaphysical nature of consciousness. I don't think that a society is free to arbitrarily postulate anything it wants about what consciousness is and how it works; I think some accounts of consciousness are true, others are false, and there are natural laws that determine which are which.

I haven't time right this instant to write about my own view of the matter, but I'll do so later if there's interest.

Bill Stoddard
I definitely don't think a society is able to arbitrarily define consciousness, but I do think it's possible for a society to adopt norms that seem outrageous to us at the moment. In some parts of the THS world, you would be used to talking to your house, would have children who's best friends are computers, and regularly converse with an identity living in your own skull (a VII). Heck, maybe your uplifted dog or cat can even text message you if they're locked outside. Basically, all these things combine to form a possible society where the intricacies of consciousness are replaced by the norm of communicating on a very real level with THINGS rather than people. As this progresses, I can fairly easily see society's adopting an "If it talks like it's sapient, it is." sort of attitude. This attitude could easily slip into one which included, if it thinks like me, it is me. All you'd need to do is have a friend of a friend of a friend who knew a guy and couldn't tell the difference between him before and after ghosting. Pretty soon, if people just treat the ghost as the original, the social norm would be to believe the ghost is the same as the original. Then, if you're from that sort of society, questions on the nature of consciousness will likely seem moot. So, in a society like THS Japan, it may very well seem reasonable to upgrade yourself into a ghost as soon as possible.
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:25 AM   #123
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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I think it's completely consistent, and it is beyond me to imagine why you could have any problem with it.

Bill Stoddard
I have a problem with it because for you, waking up with no changes in your mind (but with changes in your medium/body) is a reason for inheritance, but waking up with major changes in the mind and body (after a stroke) is not.

The former is similar to my examples with an OS on a RAID and the shrine that is repeatedly rebuilt anew. The latter is probably more similar to a virus infecting a program in such an obvious way that it won't pass the signature check (i.e. can no longer be considered the same program it was before the infection).
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Old 12-16-2009, 01:41 AM   #124
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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Or is it? Recall the story of the woman who claimed to own George Washington's axe.

"That's the same axe he owned?"

"Oh, yes. Two new heads and five new shafts, but it's still the same axe."
Are you saying that it is or that it is not?

More examples:
Moscow was burned to the ground completely when the Mongols successfully attacked it, and all its old inhabitants either died or were killed; yet it is still Moscow. Mississippi consists of different waters now than a year before, yet is Mississippi. Microsoft.com has probably migrated between a larger number of servers than we will ever work on, yet it is microsoft.com, and so on. And Koran, be it on paper or on an iPod, is still Koran, and is not to be touched with unwashed hands (even when it is merely displayed on an iPod screen).
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:24 AM   #125
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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More examples:
Moscow was burned to the ground completely when the Mongols successfully attacked it, and all its old inhabitants either died or were killed; yet it is still Moscow. Mississippi consists of different waters now than a year before, yet is Mississippi. Microsoft.com has probably migrated between a larger number of servers than we will ever work on, yet it is microsoft.com, and so on. And Koran, be it on paper or on an iPod, is still Koran, and is not to be touched with unwashed hands (even when it is merely displayed on an iPod screen).
All of these are defined from the outside, not from the inside (none of them is self-aware), and all of these exist only once. My problem with the idea that identity tranfers is in part that a) IMO it´s part of the definition of identity that it is singular and b) ghosts can exist several times. If there would be five moscows on earth, would anybody claim that they are all the same town just because they have the same name ?
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:30 AM   #126
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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I have a problem with it because for you, waking up with no changes in your mind (but with changes in your medium/body) is a reason for inheritance, but waking up with major changes in the mind and body (after a stroke) is not.
That's not what Bill said. A stroke and a leg amputation are damages to the original body, the stroke being a form of damage likely to directly change the character of the the body's conscious thought, while the leg amputation doesn't (the person's coping mehcanisms for their bodily loss notwithstanding). This is not the same as the substitution of another consciousness-holding vessel for that original body.

I'm interpreting what he is saying to mean that he endures as long as enough of his body endures to produce a substantially similar consciousness (this is determined some way detailed elsewhere) and as long as his substantially similar consciousness continues moment to moment despite the replacement of his body with something else that can support the process of conscious thought.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:34 AM   #127
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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Or is it? Recall the story of the woman who claimed to own George Washington's axe.

"That's the same axe he owned?"

"Oh, yes. Two new heads and five new shafts, but it's still the same axe."
It's an axe, to be sure, but IMO it's at best the successor to GW's axe after the parts added or used by GW are no longer present. In-between circumstances would have various answers, like if GW were still around to use the axe, the quality of being GW's axe would then endure, though not the numerical identity of the mateirals. If the axe were being maintained in trust for GW's later return or reclamation, it would be considered his axe under title of ownership, but not the numerically same axe and obviously not an axe used by GW. It needs to have continuity of possession, ownership, and materials to count as GW's axe for all purposes.

The shrine is still Ise Jingu from one reconstruction to the next in the way the town Christmas parade is the same event from one year to the next. It may not be the original Ise Jingu depending on the intentions of the people who commissioned the original building. Each rebuilt physical object is an instance of a structure suitable to serve as an iteration of the Ise Jingu traditional activity. Whether it is the same shrine depends on if "shrine" is defined as a place or a building or the contents or a religious authority's proclamation.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:52 AM   #128
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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The shrine is still Ise Jingu from one reconstruction to the next in the way the town Christmas parade is the same even from one year to the next. It may not be the original Ise Jingu depending on the intentions of the people who commissioned the original building. Each rebuilt physical object is an instance of a structure suitable to serve as an iteration of the Ise Jingu traditional activity. Whether it is the same shrine depends on if "shrine" is defined as a place or a building or the contents or a religious authority's procalamation.
"It is always the same building."
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:04 AM   #129
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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All of these are defined from the outside, not from the inside (none of them is self-aware), and all of these exist only once. My problem with the idea that identity tranfers is in part that a) IMO it´s part of the definition of identity that it is singular and b) ghosts can exist several times. If there would be five moscows on earth, would anybody claim that they are all the same town just because they have the same name ?
And self-awareness is usually the point where mysticism comes in. Also identity is not necessarily singular. It is possible that a is identical to b and to c.
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Old 12-16-2009, 07:37 AM   #130
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Default Re: Ghosts and Mind Copies - The Identity Question

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And self-awareness is usually the point where mysticism comes in. Also identity is not necessarily singular. It is possible that a is identical to b and to c.
It is not possible for one thing to be numerically identical to two different things.

Bill Stoddard
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