03-14-2018, 03:48 PM | #11 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
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ST + DX + IQ = Attribute Points So for a beginning character - ST12 + DX10 + IQ10 = 32 = ST10 + DX12 + IQ10, for instance. If so, then any change in the actual value of ST will render this equation invalid. And logically, if you bifurcate ST, you reduce the value of ST. This invalidates a key TFT presumption - that ST, DX and IQ are equivalent in value. My point is that the presumption is not actually true. The utility/value of ST has been increased in ITL, yet its cost in attribute points has not changed. (Also, the actual comparative value of ST, DX or IQ depends on the type of character - a thief is likely to value DX more than ST for example). I also assert that breaking Power out of ST has no real effect on the value of ST to heroes. And while it does make ST pretty much useless to Wizards, so what? After all, THAT'S THE GOAL. Plus, Power effectively replaces ST completely for Wizards. 8 points of Power will give a Wizard virtually the same real benefit that he currently gets from 8 points of ST. (Yes, ST governs damage taken. But I think this is balanced out by the fact that casting spells no longer causes the wizard to take damage.) It's the best solution I can come up with to solve the Conan the Wizard problem. It's an easy change, it solves the problem and it has no effect on heroes. Other solutions - adding Health being the most popular - hurt heroes by making it harder to get tougher and do more damage. Last edited by tbeard1999; 03-14-2018 at 03:52 PM. |
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03-14-2018, 03:56 PM | #12 |
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
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03-14-2018, 04:13 PM | #13 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
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Can we agree the notion of the concept of "cost" is not stated in the Melee rule-set; BUT that is a common interpretation of the rules as is an "assumption via inference" and not a rule, nor stated? Which leads me directly to: 2) LOL! I suspect you and I both know the approximate quantized value of ST, DX, and IQ; but again, it is outside the scope of the treatise, so I dont want to answer it here and risk a De-rail - so PM me, and I will give you my values there. Lets see how our numbers agree, but not here; okay? Quote:
You can only add. But you cant add by taking away,...because the whole thing is built on [(a+b)=(b+a)],.... which is Commutative, and the Arithmetic Law states that the Commutative Law of Addition does not work for Subtraction, and if you cannot subtract to add... where are you?,... round and round it goes. That's why the Foundational Stone in Immovable,... you see my point? Quote:
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Maybe so, but where did "Power" come from? There is ST, DX, and IQ; so what is the point-of-origin of "Power"? Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-15-2018 at 04:39 AM. |
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03-14-2018, 05:11 PM | #14 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
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03-14-2018, 05:14 PM | #15 | |
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
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What's been nice to see on these threads is the ideas from many long term players, some of which I'd never thought of before and may adopt myself in the future. |
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03-14-2018, 05:23 PM | #16 | |
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
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03-14-2018, 08:25 PM | #17 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
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Well the premise is the Algebraic Engine which drives the TFT character creation. So we need to discover which engine you are going to modify. Mathematically 3Attributes@32 could be expressed in three ways, it depends on if you think Wizard is an expansion to the Melee rules, or if Wizard restated Melee/Wizard, or if it was the Melee premise which was expanded, jsut as though IQ was there all along. Here how they look for what they really are: The letters being variable values: TFT as Melee Premise only [(a+b)=(b+a)] = 24 Now, here comes the addition of the IQ Attribute with Wizard/IQ TFT as Melee Premise/Wizard expanding {[(a+b)+c]=[c+(b+a)]}=32 ? or, is it, TFT as Wizard Restates the WHOLE Premise [(a+b+c)=(c+b+a)]=32 ? or, is it, {[(a)+(b)+(c)]=[(c)+(b)+(a)]}=32; like 3 independent reels on a slot machine that gives you a total pay-out? So before you state a premise for 4 Attributes, you should know the which premise of 3 attributes you understand first; logical? If NO, then just do whatever you want and simply slap that 4th Att on your character anywhere you like, and don't even worry about how it changes the math and the game; being the foundation of the design. Just have at it and have fun. If YES, the first step you would need to do is to decide which of the three expressions of Melee/Wizard states how YOU understand the 3 ATT TFT premise when taken from a ST DX @24 premise and into a ST DX IQ @32 premise. We will take it from there when you have decided if Melee is the base with IQ added on top to expand to 3 Atts, or, is it now a whole new base including both together. Jim Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-15-2018 at 11:21 PM. Reason: Correct Value Total |
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03-14-2018, 08:29 PM | #18 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
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Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-15-2018 at 01:55 AM. |
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03-15-2018, 06:52 AM | #19 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
Ty -
For additional comparison: The algebraic formula for the character creation premise as stated in TFT:ITL could be written as: 32 = {[(8 ST)+(8 DX)+(8 IQ)] / 8} Being the most up-to-date restatement of the premise. "... starts with 8 ST, 8 DX, 8 IQ, and 8 EXTRA points to be allotted between any or all of these attributes, as the player chooses. Thus, each human figure begins with a total of 32 points." - Jackson, Steve. "Selecting Attributes." In The Fantasy Trip: In The Labyrinth, p7. Austin: Metagaming, 1980. As the most recent, and the most specific in the verbiage used in all the previous permutations of the stated premise, I would presume this to be what is most accurate as to what the philosophical view is with regard to the nature of the disconnected/connected nature of the Basic Attributes as they are related/unrelated to each other beyond being variable sums within a shared total. If the above statement is true, then, the Melee premise and the ITL premise are two different premises; ergo, two different games. PS - that is as close as I can write the formula given the limitations of the keyboard characters to indicate 8 being distributed across the Basic Attributes accurately - but I think the picture serves as is. Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-15-2018 at 07:01 AM. |
03-15-2018, 05:50 PM | #20 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: The Immovable Foundation-Stone on which TFT Characters are Built
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Therefore, any proposals for adding fourth or further attributes should probably not start with some assumed a priori mathematical principle (e.g., going from Melee to Wizard they went from 24 with a mean over 2 of 12 to 32 with a mean over 3 of 10.67, so going to four attributes we'll have 40 total for a mean over 4 of 10, or whatever). Instead, depending on what the new attributes do, we would evaluate what their starting values should be for various types of figures (i.e., races, etc.) and whether any additional 'bonus' points are needed at all, on the basis of game balance (hopefully backed up by some actual playtesting). For example, if the fourth attribute is Power (and it would be nice if it did something other than provide energy for spells - maybe it could have something to do with the potency of one's spells against countermagic or other resistance, or how powerful your spells can be as opposed to how many you can know), then presumably the intent is that wizards will buy up DX, IQ, and PW, leaving ST alone, while other characters will buy up DX, IQ, and ST, leaving PW alone - so 8 'bonus' points might well still be sufficient to spread around your attributes. But the algebraic formulae upon which you're placing so much weight never really had any purpose other than getting (starting) characters to attribute levels where they could contend against each other pretty fairly. |
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