The REAL fundamentals: part of fantasy setting design that I never even thought about

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, I'm not anti-mythic. In fact these considerations largely play nice with such mythic feats as Primordials and Solars (from Exalted) manipulating the Shinma (some of the more basic principles of existence) to change the laws of nature, e.g. creating sections of existence where time is linear, creating or eliminating afterlife as a thing etc.

How do you run a campaign where time is not linear? Linearity is the normal structure of narrative. And it seems especially necessary in improvised narrative. An author can contrive to have the end of a story loop back to the beginning, as in Finnegans Wake, or start out the story assuming the presence and influence of events that will eventually be the outcome of later events, as in "By His Bootstraps" and "All You Zombies"—or even have a repeatedly changing past give rise to a carefully planned chaotic present. But you can't count on players to help you contrive a closed narrative line, and it's asking a lot to expect them to make sense of history-changing story events. For that matter, having the GM keep track seems challenging too.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by whswhs

How do you run a campaign where time is not linear? Linearity is the normal structure of narrative.

Because RPG Campaigns are not narratives they are pen & paper virtual realities where the focus on the experience. So the answer to your question is what would the experience of non-liner time be like if you were standing there. That will dictate how you present it.

Now I will be honest I wouldn't know how to answer that myself. I get time-loops, paradoxes, and successfully used them in my campaigns. But I don't think what Vicki is talking about it is quite the same thing.

We as human being exist in time so it is hard to me to imagine what the experience of timelessness would be like, let alone contrive an experience that gives a sense of timelessness. I guess I could do it by figuring out my players preconceptions on the subject and manipulate the experience to fit them which would make them feel as if they are in a timeless location.

Originally Posted by whswhs

For that matter, having the GM keep track seems challenging too.

Definitely challenging.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

How do you run a campaign where time is not linear? Linearity is the normal structure of narrative. And it seems especially necessary in improvised narrative. An author can contrive to have the end of a story loop back to the beginning, as in Finnegans Wake, or start out the story assuming the presence and influence of events that will eventually be the outcome of later events, as in "By His Bootstraps" and "All You Zombies"—or even have a repeatedly changing past give rise to a carefully planned chaotic present. But you can't count on players to help you contrive a closed narrative line, and it's asking a lot to expect them to make sense of history-changing story events. For that matter, having the GM keep track seems challenging too.

Surely you have at least heard of campaign times where time, instead of always moving in a straight line, can loop, branch, rewind and undergo other sorts of manipulations.

For an example that is probably only slightly more bizzare than the typical time travel story, how about an entity that can experience several branches of possibility (timelines) starting at Time A until Time B (thus drawing curves AB1 and AB2), then arbitrarily merge the effects of those branching curves onto itself, picking and choosing. E.g. where one branch involves learning more occult knowledge and losing a bit of sanity to the squid-god, while another involves suffering a stroke and having a piece of one's brain replaced with cybernetics . . . and then at Time B, the entity combines the two timelines, retaining occult knowledge and proceeding to debug one's psyche using cybernetic interfaces, eventually curing the sanity-blast (that would not be possible without said interfaces). That sort of stuff.

Now, of course you as a player will have to experience the events of multiple branches either sequentially, or frequently switching between branches. And, in case your instances in different branches are truly isolated, you'll have to deal with an above-average amount of information firewalling as a player. But that's the price of dealing with an alien mind in gameplay like that.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

For an example that is probably only slightly more bizzare than the typical time travel story, how about an entity that can experience several branches of possibility (timelines) starting at Time A until Time B (thus drawing curves AB1 and AB2), then arbitrarily merge the effects of those branching curves onto itself, picking and choosing. E.g. where one branch involves learning more occult knowledge and losing a bit of sanity to the squid-god, while another involves suffering a stroke and having a piece of one's brain replaced with cybernetics . . . and then at Time B, the entity combines the two timelines, retaining occult knowledge and proceeding to debug one's psyche using cybernetic interfaces, eventually curing the sanity-blast (that would not be possible without said interfaces). That sort of stuff.

No, actually, as a player, I've never encountered anything remotely like that, and as a GM, I've never run such a thing.

But that's not where I see the big problem. In that case you still have a clearly defined "before" and "after" for the campaign as a whole, which maps to the "before" and "after" for each character. There does not seem to be the case where event X happens, and AFTER event X (by character P's definition) character P does something that happens BEFORE event X (by character Q's definition) and thus changes X into X'. Or, more broadly, where instead of two timelines—narrative and world—you have three—narrative, world, and PoV character.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by whswhs

No, actually, as a player, I've never encountered anything remotely like that, and as a GM, I've never run such a thing.

But that's not where I see the big problem. In that case you still have a clearly defined "before" and "after" for the campaign as a whole, which maps to the "before" and "after" for each character. There does not seem to be the case where event X happens, and AFTER event X (by character P's definition) character P does something that happens BEFORE event X (by character Q's definition) and thus changes X into X'. Or, more broadly, where instead of two timelines—narrative and world—you have three—narrative, world, and PoV character.

When instead of a line, you have segments, branches, perhaps curves, I do not think it is quite fair to call it linear. I would not call a rhombus linear, for example.

And before and after can become less strict even from the character PoV with sufficient amounts of time-manipulation. Consider Dr. Manhattan, who at time 1 knows what another character will say, then at time 2 the character says it, then at time 3 Dr. Manhattan becomes suprised by the spoken words. Is something in your past or your future if you already experienced it but it yet did not happen to you?
Is something in the past of a timeline straight behind you in your own time PoV if you can pick whichever of the multiple possible pasts as the past that applies to your present(s) and/or your future(s)?

You still connect any two points with a line, but no longer are you restricted to positioning them all on a single dimension.

----

On a side note, I find it surprising that you, given your interest in the less orthodox sorts of campaigns, have not ever experimented with running or playing in a time travel and/or parallel worlds campaign.

[Flyndaran]

He's not saying he's never played or GMed (cross)time travel.

Those adventures would still include linear SUBJECTIVE time for PCs. What you seem to suggest is chaotic and inherently "crazy" from the PC's perspective, and a bit of a rail roading for the players themselves.
They become "tied to the tracks" to perform future actions that allow the past events to transpire the way they did.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

He's not saying he's never played or GMed (cross)time travel.

Those adventures would still include linear SUBJECTIVE time for PCs. What you seem to suggest is chaotic and inherently "crazy" from the PC's perspective, and a bit of a rail roading for the players themselves.
They become "tied to the tracks" to perform future actions that allow the past events to transpire the way they did.

'Probably' for the 'crazy', 'not necessarily' and/or 'preferably not' for the 'railroading', though in that case the events in the campaign become somewhat impermanent.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

He's not saying he's never played or GMed (cross)time travel.

Indeed, though I'm not very interested in it. I run AH campaigns as self-contained worlds with no one dropping in from an alternate timeline.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

He's not saying he's never played or GMed (cross)time travel.

Those adventures would still include linear SUBJECTIVE time for PCs. What you seem to suggest is chaotic and inherently "crazy" from the PC's perspective, and a bit of a rail roading for the players themselves.
They become "tied to the tracks" to perform future actions that allow the past events to transpire the way they did.

There are ways for an ambitious GM. For example you could start with the characters fighting off assassins hired to kill them and then investigating to find a clue that leads back to that business in Lisbon, the one the players know nothing about until they finish playing the flashback you're about to carry them through. Then the GM decides who holds the grudge after the players give someone reason.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Indeed, though I'm not very interested in it. I run AH campaigns as self-contained worlds with no one dropping in from an alternate timeline.

Even in my personal imagination, I find it hard to resist the kitchen sink approach to AH settings.
I can't help but wonder how X from our world, or my other characters, would react to sudden transportation there.