Make contact skill great again.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Sure, but I think tasks gets easier when more people cooperate to solve a problem, and thats what the bonus tried to represent in those cases (?), isnt it?

There is not one single "bonus." Rather, there are different cases with different bonuses. The general abstract principle is applied (a) to different skills (b) based on different skills or advantages (c) to allow different bonuses (d) determined in different ways (by absolute skill level, by success or failure on a skill roll, or perhaps in other ways) (e) with different upper limits on how much benefit you can gain.

Moreover, in all those cases, it is applied to a character's actual skill, which is different from a Contact's effective skill. You do not even KNOW a Contact's actual skill, you have no need to, and it has an upper limit set separately from the limits on skills and skill bonuses for actual characters.

As someone who has written a lot of GURPS rules, I can tell you that I would never submit a book (or have submitted a Pyramid article) that generalized as freely between cases as you wish to. I would not have expected Kromm to accept such a statement, I would have expected my playtesters to ridicule it, and if it somehow was published, I would have expected to see complaints about it on these discussion boards. Of course you are not aspiring to be a published GURPS author, but you should not be surprised that your proposed rules interpretations are meeting general rejection here; they do not meet the established standard for GURPS rules.

[talonthehand]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

In both cases the rules allow for a bonus of +6, while on the invention rules they allow for up to +4. There are different ways of understanding a system, the one I have chosen analyzes principles inherent to cases of sem characteristics to extract general principles.

Your underlying premise seems to be that the general principles weren't stated, and so must be determined by looking at specific situations spread across distinct books published years apart.

I argue that GURPS was not made to be deciphered by game masters or players like a puzzle. Because that wouldn't be remotely playable.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Sure, but I think tasks gets easier when more people cooperate to solve a problem, and thats what the bonus tried to represent in those cases (?), isnt it?

As GM you can house rule whatever you want and your players are willing to work with,
On the forums if your asking peoples opinion and interpretation of a rule as written your going to get that and it will tend to be conservative and adhere as close as possible to what most of the posters (especially authors) see.
Imagine the hassles if an author such as WHSWHS interpreted a rule differently than the accepted standard or counter to official interpretation.
It would create more confusion and other problems.

House Rules are different but dont seem to be what your asking about in this and other threads. A House rule is more like... "So how broken would it be if I just did this in my campaign?"
Answers to that would be less controversial and full of good and bad points but all up to you to decide of the change is worth it.
I hope that is helpful.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

I also do something similar, but I'm trying to finish polishing the content of "Mass Combat" and "Boardroom and Curia" and seems like "Contacts" are the way to go to represent organizational capabilities...

The Contact with Administration skill can basically give you access to any reasonable service their organization can provide.

[Purple Snit]

Once again, I have to ask: Why? What is the purpose of this thread? The rules aren't broken, they work just fine for the majority of players and GMs. For some undefined reason, you want Contacts to have a skill above 21. You, once again, have refused to specify if this is for an NPC of yours [in which case, do whatever you want, you don't need our permission] or for PCs [in which case consensus is, it's a bad idea that is being justified by breaking/bending rules to suit your purposes].

You have been informed that you are picking and choosing examples and rules from all over the game system, and bordering on rules-lawyering, all to justify something that really isn't necessary in the first place.

And again - what do you want from the forums here? Approval? Discussion? Critiques? Input? A reasonable exchange of views?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to clarify your intentions.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

... that generalized as freely between cases as you wish to...

Which is exactly what the actual Contact advantage seems to be doing. A dangerous task has a modifier of -8 to -9, a trivial task a modifier of +8 to +9. Use an organizational Contact skill and you are stuck rolling against 21 in both cases.

I can not think of how to generalize more and what I am thinking about is the possibility of eliminating the word "effective" from the description of the advantage for the sake of degeneralization... or create a new advantage with similar characteristics. And in any case, my proposal is based on one of the Pyramid articles, written by Christopher R. Rice, which says:

Troop Quality/Average Combat Skill Level
Legendary* 18 or higher
World-Class* 16 to 17
Elite 14 to 15
Good 12 to 13
Average 10 to 11
Inferior 9 or less

Adding not one but two extra levels.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Which is exactly what the actual Contact advantage seems to be doing. A dangerous task has a modifier of -8 to -9, a trivial task a modifier of +8 to +9. Use an organizational Contact skill and you are stuck rolling against 21 in both cases.

I don't think that is the case. Your effective skill level reflects both your actual skill and the connections, resources, other skills, and so on you can bring to bear. But the list under Contacts does not include situational difficulty modifiers, and I see no reason to suppose they are subsumed into effective skill level. I think if you have effective skill 21, and a task is easy or hard, you can roll against anything from 11 up to 31.

I'd also note that YOU do not roll against the Contact's skill. You roll to see if the Contact is available; the GM rolls to see if the Contact can do what you ask.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

But the list under Contacts does not include situational difficulty modifiers, and I see no reason to suppose they are subsumed into effective skill level.

That is what the other poster realised and what the words "effective skill level" stand for exactly: all modifiers are subsumed.

Lets assume for a minute that your conclusion is not wrong. Let me know where the advantage points that equipment and complementary rolls are subsumed, or lets agree that you get to add those modifiers on top of that contact "effective skill value" too. Otherwise you do not get to have your cake and eat it too.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Which is exactly what the actual Contact advantage seems to be doing. A dangerous task has a modifier of -8 to -9, a trivial task a modifier of +8 to +9. Use an organizational Contact skill and you are stuck rolling against 21 in both cases.

However, at no point would a Contact be performing a task with a modifier of -8 to -9.

Originally Posted by Characters, pg 44

You have an associate who provides you with useful information, or who does small (pick any two of “quick,” “nonhazardous,” and “inexpensive”) favors for you.

(emphasis from book)

I doubt a Contact would ever suffer a TDM of -3 or worse. I certainly wouldn't allow it as that seems to be abusing the spirit of the rule. I would almost require that the task must be +1 (Favorable) or better or the Contact couldn't (or wouldn't) complete it. Remember, the Task Difficulty chart is skewed for adventurers and not normal people. Contacts are, generally, normal people, and a +1 is something that would cause most people to hesitate to perform.

Additionally:

Originally Posted by Characters, pg 44

Likewise, the GM must not allow a Contact to give information that short-circuits an important part of the adventure.

Your entire thread seems to be to increase the ability of Contacts to that of an Ally or Patron, and if you want those abilities, you should buy those advantages.

James has "Bird Mafia" as a contact group (Skill 15 + Supernatural, FA 9-, Completely Reliable), as the birds in his city all talk to him and they gather information for him. If he needs them to find something small and easy to carry, they'll bring it to him. They don't endanger themselves, or if they do, it's very briefly, and usually accidental.

James also has "Jeremy," a raven, as an Ally, who does more direct and dangerous tasks for him, and acts as a go-between for him and the other birds. Jeremy regularly accompanies him in dangerous places to provide additional support and the ability to get messages in and out quickly.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

However, at no point would a Contact be performing a task with a modifier of -8 to -9.

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

I doubt a Contact would ever suffer a TDM of -3 or worse. I certainly wouldn't allow it as that seems to be abusing the spirit of the rule.

I do not know how useful these evidence of yours are, but let's go your way, compare a trivial task (+9) with a very unfavorable one (-3), or even a favorable one (+1). Do they have the same difficulty? If not, why is the idea that it should be treated as if the answer were yes even considered when the problem is obvious?

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Your entire thread seems to be to increase the ability of Contacts to that of an Ally or Patron, and if you want those abilities, you should buy those advantages.

My thread is based on finding terms with which to define organizations, not characters, for which I am trying to base myself on the book "Boardroom and Curia", finding in any case serious inconsistencies in the "Contacts" advantage.