[Basic] Advantage of the Week (#30): Contact Group, Contacts

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

So, let's look at an example of a 60-point Contact, and I'll suggest what seems reasonable. Let's make it a wizard with Skill 21 in Thaumatology, frequency of appearance Constantly, and Completely Reliable. What does that get you?

That's certainly a good justification for the 60 pt cost of that Contact, but 60 pts also gets you an extremely powerful individual (at least double the PC's point value- 15pts), available all the time- x4. I'd expect similar support from such a Patron, with everything on your list, without any worry about whether that favour is regarded as quick, nonhazardous or inexpensive for the individual; no stated limit on the amount of aid available (although the GM could of course try to keep things to a reasonable level); as well as the bunch of other stuff that sits in the gap between what a Patron would provide that a Contact wouldn't.

And, bear in mind, all of those happen with an effective assistance roll of 21. Rank literally never gets that high, capping out at 15.

I'm not sure what this is referring to- is it from Pulling Rank? But in any case, 60 pts on Rank would be Military Rank 12- which would have to be something like the Supreme Overlord High Commander of the Intergalactic Navy, with trillions of troops under you. In a fantasy setting, with 10 pts/level of Status/Rank, you'd be Status/Rank 6- Prince of the Realm, as well as general of an army of soldier and wizards that would have to help you.

[sir_pudding]

That probably just means that you probably shouldn't ever spend more than 20 points on a Contact.

[Lord Azagthoth]

One of my players had a Contact (a smuggler). When she tried to contact him, I role-played it out fully. Due to the time her message received him and he had time to respond I managed for him to be useful at the right time so the players had to think first instead of just making use of a contact. And then at last, when the need is highest, he slipped some crucial information to the player.

This was in a Star Wars campaign during the first year of the Clone Wars.

[Anders]

I would recommend subsuming Contacts into the Ally advantage. You don't have to stat the Contact fully, just estimate the point cost of the NPC and apply a Limitation on it to reflect that it will only do minor tasks. -50%? -80%

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Anders

I would recommend subsuming Contacts into the Ally advantage. You don't have to stat the Contact fully, just estimate the point cost of the NPC and apply a Limitation on it to reflect that it will only do minor tasks. -50%? -80%

Ally, Contact, and Patron should have been rolled into one with the only differences being level of favors and whom is in "control" of the relationship.


Though honestly the difference between Contact and Patron on the control axis is superficial at best.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

That's certainly a good justification for the 60 pt cost of that Contact, but 60 pts also gets you an extremely powerful individual (at least double the PC's point value- 15pts), available all the time- x4. I'd expect similar support from such a Patron, with everything on your list, without any worry about whether that favour is regarded as quick, nonhazardous or inexpensive for the individual; no stated limit on the amount of aid available (although the GM could of course try to keep things to a reasonable level); as well as the bunch of other stuff that sits in the gap between what a Patron would provide that a Contact wouldn't.

I think Patron does come with a couple of effective limitations that Contacts generally don't, however, which goes towards balancing them. First, Patrons will typically require more from you than a Contact would. Contacts, as I mentioned earlier, generally only require basic social maintenance to keep them in with you - friendship stuff, basically, and doing small favours for them. Patrons, on the other hand, usually require more commitment from you - a Duty to an organization, disadvantages suitable for a Pact for a god, Enemies the patron has are now yours, etc.

Second, while a Patron will help if the frequency of appearance roll comes up, they won't always help you the way you ask. If you ask for a goon squad to help you out in a fight, your army general Patron might decide the mission is lost, and send evac instead, even though you think you could win the fight.

These factors together means that a Patron will generally represent a loss of autonomy for the player who takes them, compared with a Contact.

Another point of comparison - I was assuming that the wizard Contact in the example above was pretty well-connected overall, highly ranked in the Wizard Guild or whatever the equivalent was, and also reasonably connected in society in general. Contacts in general seem to assume that - default examples include military generals, business owners, police chiefs, and Dons of crime families. Whereas Patron includes the Special Abilities modifier, and says it applies if "Your Patron wields power out of proportion to its wealth or point value... if your Patron has extensive social or political power (e.g., the Governor of New York or the Pope)". Arguably, at least, the wizard I've described qualifies for that, since they not only have their own spells, but significant social pull. So as a Patron, they'd cost 90 points instead of 60.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I'm not sure what this is referring to- is it from Pulling Rank?

Yes, sorry, that's correct. I referenced using the Pulling Rank rules for Contacts upthread, and forgot to specify I was still using that assumption.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

But in any case, 60 pts on Rank would be Military Rank 12- which would have to be something like the Supreme Overlord High Commander of the Intergalactic Navy, with trillions of troops under you. In a fantasy setting, with 10 pts/level of Status/Rank, you'd be Status/Rank 6- Prince of the Realm, as well as general of an army of soldier and wizards that would have to help you.

True, but the tradeoff with Rank/Status vs. Contacts is, again, player autonomy, I feel. Rank almost always comes with some sort of Duty or other obligation attached to it, and while Status is less set than that, it does generally require that you act accordingly - dressing the part, attending social events, associating with the right people in the right ways, and so forth - or risk losing it. A Contact, in contrast, since it's a personal relationship, could hypothetically be possessed by anyone, regardless of social standing or overall behaviour. A beggar with Status -2 could happen to be the old childhood friend of the wizard we're talking about, and get all the benefits of the Contact even though society at large considers them less than dirt.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Anders

I would recommend subsuming Contacts into the Ally advantage. You don't have to stat the Contact fully, just estimate the point cost of the NPC and apply a Limitation on it to reflect that it will only do minor tasks. -50%? -80%

You'd have to drop the 150% cap on an Ally's point value too. But a "information requests and minor favours only" limitation would be good.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Ally, Contact, and Patron should have been rolled into one with the only differences being level of favors and whom is in "control" of the relationship.

Though honestly the difference between Contact and Patron on the control axis is superficial at best.

I'm not totally sure what you mean by "control axis" here, but I think Contacts that only respond to a PC's request is only one type of contact that is seen in fiction or real-life. There's also the informant who randomly brings you information when they come across it. But as this would be basically a GM's plot point introduction mechanism outside a PC's control, they probably shouldn't pay for it.

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I think Patron does come with a couple of effective limitations that Contacts generally don't, however, which goes towards balancing them. First, Patrons will typically require more from you than a Contact would. Contacts, as I mentioned earlier, generally only require basic social maintenance to keep them in with you - friendship stuff, basically, and doing small favours for them. Patrons, on the other hand, usually require more commitment from you - a Duty to an organization, disadvantages suitable for a Pact for a god, Enemies the patron has are now yours, etc.

But Duties, Enemies, Pacts or whatever are separate disadvantages explicitly written out on the character sheet with their own point costs which vary from one instance to another. They don't enter into the calculation if we're comparing the benefit given from having a Contact with having a Patron. You could just as easily tack on Sense of Duty or Dependent to a Contact if you wanted to write them up that way- your PI character's Contact on the force might sometimes call on him to return the favour, for example.

Second, while a Patron will help if the frequency of appearance roll comes up, they won't always help you the way you ask. If you ask for a goon squad to help you out in a fight, your army general Patron might decide the mission is lost, and send evac instead, even though you think you could win the fight.

Perhaps, but I think that's how you might choose to play it- RAW just seems to say they'll provide help. But I still don't think that makes up for the "benefit disparity" in having a Contact versus a Patron.

True, but the tradeoff with Rank/Status vs. Contacts is, again, player autonomy, I feel. Rank almost always comes with some sort of Duty or other obligation attached to it, and while Status is less set than that, it does generally require that you act accordingly - dressing the part, attending social events, associating with the right people in the right ways, and so forth - or risk losing it.

As above, that either means you're listing the disadvantage separately, or the drawbacks of being a prince and general are far outweighed by the benefits when compared with a Contact of the same point value.

The test is, if a PC is designing a character for a game, and they're familiar enough with the ins-and-outs of the rules, which would they choose to drop 60 pts on- a 60-pt Patron, 60 pts in Rank and Social Status, or a 60-point Contact? That's if they don't want to just drop 60 points into the skills they were thinking of the Contact having.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I'm not totally sure what you mean by "control axis" here...

I've always taken Patron (for being the word Patron) as having an element of control over the PCs lives.

Of course that's not actually in the advantage, which I forget all the time as it's one of those biases I brought prepackaged with me.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

The test is, if a PC is designing a character for a game, and they're familiar enough with the ins-and-outs of the rules, which would they choose to drop 60 pts on- a 60-pt Patron, 60 pts in Rank and Social Status, or a 60-point Contact? That's if they don't want to just drop 60 points into the skills they were thinking of the Contact having.

Just because 60 point Contacts are a waste of points, doesn't mean that 1-5 point Contacts are.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Just because 60 point Contacts are a waste of points, doesn't mean that 1-5 point Contacts are.

Unfortunately, not all character concepts want only low-key Contacts, and it's hard to build a useful, connected Contact without feeling the points are wasted.