Rapid Healing and Regeneration

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Slow Regen + Limitation + 5 points (or more, to compensate for the limitation, which only highlights how strangely priced VRH is)

The limitation that has been proposed is: "Requires a HT roll"--but even that doesn't do the same thing as VRH. Because VRH interacts with the natural recovery rules...which says you don't get the HT roll if you don't take a full day of rest and get good food. Slapping on a "Requires a HT roll" limitation just means that you have to roll HT, nothing about resting. They are interacting with different parts of the rules sets.

As a GM, I can say yes to things. But this is not a thing I'm going to say yes to. I have no desire to try and turn Regeneration into VRH unartfully, when I can just use VRH. Especially since they are not the same thing.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by trooper6

The limitation that has been proposed is: "Requires a HT roll"--but even that doesn't do the same thing as VRH. Because VRH interacts with the natural recovery rules...which says you don't get the HT roll if you don't take a full day of rest and get good food. Slapping on a "Requires a HT roll" limitation just means that you have to roll HT, nothing about resting. They are interacting with different parts of the rules sets.

It also included 'only when resting'. Which still doesn't actually make it work the same as VRH, but it's silly to ignore that.

Originally Posted by trooper6

As a GM, I can say yes to things. But this is not a thing I'm going to say yes to. I have no desire to try and turn Regeneration into VRH unartfully, when I can just use VRH. Especially since they are not the same thing.

...If you want the mechanics of VRH, well, I see your point. But why do you insist on charging more than 5 points more than they're worth?

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It also included 'only when resting'. Which still doesn't actually make it work the same as VRH, but it's silly to ignore that.

...If you want the mechanics of VRH, well, I see your point. But why do you insist on charging more than 5 points more than they're worth?

Worth is relative and contingent.

As a Power: Innate Attack 2(Huge Piercing) [16], Breakable (DR 4, -15%, SM -5, -10%), Can Be Stolen (Quick Contest, -30%), Inaccurate -15%, 1min prep required, -20%. Increased 1/2 Range 10x (+15%), Increased Max Range 5x (+10%).

Total Cost: 16, -65% = 6cp
Total Cost using Multiplicative Mods: 16, +25%, -80% = 4cp

And what happens if you want to buy the TL3 Handgonne (B279), which does 2d pi++ costs $300 and was what the above power models, as Signature Gear? Only 1cp in Signature Gear.

Oh no! Clearly Powers are overpriced...or Signature Gear is underpriced!

Not everything is going to cost exactly the same.

Rapid Healing and Very Rapid Healing parallels the cost of Fit and Very Fit.

That (RAW) works for me, and it works for my players.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Oh no! Clearly Powers are overpriced...or Signature Gear is underpriced!

Keep in mind that you should never be able to get signature gear and a gadget that are the same in a campaign per B116.

The parallel I would use, therefore, is that VRH shouldn't be purchased where Regeneration is available. That aside I don't see it as a major issue.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by trooper6

Worth is relative and contingent.

Worth is relative to every other advantage, not just the ones that do very close to the same thing. Even if they can never be compared directly (which is not the case), they most assuredly can be compared by way of other Advantages that are valid in both campaigns.

Value is contingent. Advantage prices are not contingent, however. So how can VRH's price be justified by the contingency that no other better-than-Rapid Healing healing advantage is permitted?

Originally Posted by trooper6

Oh no! Clearly Powers are overpriced...or Signature Gear is underpriced!

Going into the comparisons of gear and Advantages is tangential. But it is certainly the case that almost any time gear can be substituted for an advantage, the gear is cheaper (and the rest it's usually comically more costly...).

Originally Posted by trooper6

Not everything is going to cost exactly the same.

But when it doesn't, there should be a reason. Common examples include:
-Yes, it costs more if you build it non-optimally.
-That's not actually legal/is a modifier-exploit the GM probably shouldn't permit/has drawbacks you're disregarding.
-Yes it costs more, but there are additional benefits.

Not so much: "Yes, it costs more and does less, but the GM might ban every other advantage that can do something similar, causing some players to buy it anyway."

Originally Posted by trooper6

Rapid Healing and Very Rapid Healing parallels the cost of Fit and Very Fit.

That (RAW) works for me, and it works for my players.

I don't know which of these is less relevant.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I don't know which of these is less relevant.

What is most relevant is RAW. And RAW says VRH exists and it costs 15cp. Anything else is your house rule.

[Langy]

Wow, really? I never would have guessed. And yet that doesn't matter one even tiny bit, because we aren't asking how much VRH costs by RAW. RAW, in fact, does not matter in the discussion of how much VRH should cost.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by trooper6

As a GM, I can say yes to things. But this is not a thing I'm going to say yes to.

You keep insisting on this, but I don't know why. This is not a thread about Trooper6's game. It's a thread bout Slow Regeneration vs Very Rapid Healing, and the inconsistencies therein. I really don't care what you choose to allow or disallow in your game.

To the core point: If I came into your game and asked to take a Talent called "Tough guy" which cost 5 points per level, and each level removed a point of "shock" penalties and gave me a +1 to resist stun/knockdown, and the social bonus was applied to people impressed with toughness, you'd tell me I was crazy for wanting to take a 15-20 point advantage that already did what High Pain Threshold did. If I replied that it "wasn't the same" (for example, I could have +1 rather than a full +3, and I get a social bonus), you'd still think it was crazy, redundant, and unnecessarily expensive. If Kromm put it in print, this wouldn't change the fact.

Yet we have VRH and Slow Regen which do the same thing, barring minute mechanical differences (Yeah, ok, there's a small chance that, with the +5 to heal, you might not get both HP in a day, but c'mon...), and one is more expensive than the other. It's insanity, it's redundant, and it's unnecessary. I see no reason to defend it.

As for Slow Regen being "exotic," clearly a normal human is capable of healing 2 HP per day: Very Rapid Healing says so. If you're worried about the cost difference, you can apply an Unusual Background cost, and arrive at the same value. I don't see how bundling VRH into Regen is any more problematic than bundling Toughness from 3e into Damage Resistance in 4e.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

Yet we have VRH and Slow Regen which do the same thing, barring minute mechanical differences (Yeah, ok, there's a small chance that, with the +5 to heal, you might not get both HP in a day, but c'mon...), and one is more expensive than the other. It's insanity, it's redundant, and it's unnecessary. I see no reason to defend it.

As for Slow Regen being "exotic," clearly a normal human is capable of healing 2 HP per day: Very Rapid Healing says so. If you're worried about the cost difference, you can apply an Unusual Background cost, and arrive at the same value. I don't see how bundling VRH into Regen is any more problematic than bundling Toughness from 3e into Damage Resistance in 4e.

The huge difference between VRH and Slow Regen is not that you have a slim chance of failing the HT roll with VRH. The big mechanical difference is that if you are up adventuring all day, you regen 2hp. If you are up adventuring all day, you don't get to roll HT to recover and you don't heal.

A normal human is capable of healing 2hp per day...as long as they are resting and eating (VRH). A normal human is not capable of healing 2hp per day while on 24-hour drugs and dancing binge (Slow Regeneration). If the VRH person and the Slow Regen person are both resting, the VRH gets 2hp, and the Slow Regen person gets 3.

The differences between them are not minimal. One fits within the constraints and rules of normal (i.e. no healing without resting). One does not (i.e. regenerating no matter what).

They are not redundant.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

To the core point: If I came into your game and asked to take a Talent called "Tough guy" which cost 5 points per level, and each level removed a point of "shock" penalties and gave me a +1 to resist stun/knockdown, and the social bonus was applied to people impressed with toughness, you'd tell me I was crazy for wanting to take a 15-20 point advantage that already did what High Pain Threshold did. If I replied that it "wasn't the same" (for example, I could have +1 rather than a full +3, and I get a social bonus), you'd still think it was crazy, redundant, and unnecessarily expensive. If Kromm put it in print, this wouldn't change the fact.

Perhaps you may want to review the Talent rules. Talents only give bonuses to Skills, they don't remove shock penalties.