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Old 03-18-2018, 01:17 PM   #201
Daigoro
 
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Default Re: Exotic Governmental/Legal Systems

What if the bureaucracy was completely staffed by regular citizens in a similar way to jury duty?

A bureaucratic elite wouldn't form, and the bureaucracy would completely follow the wishes of the ruling politicians, rather than the tail wagging the dog.

It would of course be completely inefficient.
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Old 03-18-2018, 11:13 PM   #202
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What if the bureaucracy was completely staffed by regular citizens in a similar way to jury duty?

A bureaucratic elite wouldn't form, and the bureaucracy would completely follow the wishes of the ruling politicians, rather than the tail wagging the dog.

It would of course be completely inefficient.
A hybrid system might exist. I could picture a society where panels of randomly selected citizens, sort of like jury duty, act as a 'review authority' for actions of the professional bureaucrats. They might serve for a year or two, and have the authority to void given actions, or in extreme cases force the firing of public officials, say by a 2/3 vote.

The idea would be that the knowledge of such 'ordinary people review' would provide an incentive for the administrative authorities to consider how their actions would 'play in whatever city', or at least how to explain them in ways that make sense to ordinary people.

So, (for an ex) if environmental reasons require that private property be taken in Region 'x', the possibility of review overturn might at least lead the authorities to make really sure of the necessity, and to explain it in ways that don't boil down to 'because we said so'. It might also help counter the tendency for large monied interests to 'capture' regulatory authorities.

(The review panel selection process would need to be truly random for that to work, though. Absent that, the panels too would be subject to 'capture', either by interest groups or the bureaucracy.)
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:24 AM   #203
Michael Cule
 
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A hybrid system might exist. I could picture a society where panels of randomly selected citizens, sort of like jury duty, act as a 'review authority' for actions of the professional bureaucrats. They might serve for a year or two, and have the authority to void given actions, or in extreme cases force the firing of public officials, say by a 2/3 vote.

The idea would be that the knowledge of such 'ordinary people review' would provide an incentive for the administrative authorities to consider how their actions would 'play in whatever city', or at least how to explain them in ways that make sense to ordinary people.

So, (for an ex) if environmental reasons require that private property be taken in Region 'x', the possibility of review overturn might at least lead the authorities to make really sure of the necessity, and to explain it in ways that don't boil down to 'because we said so'. It might also help counter the tendency for large monied interests to 'capture' regulatory authorities.

(The review panel selection process would need to be truly random for that to work, though. Absent that, the panels too would be subject to 'capture', either by interest groups or the bureaucracy.)
That might work. You would have to carefully define the powers of a review panel: having random individuals redesign major parts of a working system would cause chaos as much as introducing bits of TWILIGHT fanfic into machine code would.

But giving organisations and individuals the right to invoke a review panel against administrative decisions might well work as long as they said: We don't like this, this and this. Fix it!

Hmm, a topic for thought in case I ever become Supreme Dictator.
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Old 03-19-2018, 09:13 PM   #204
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That might work. You would have to carefully define the powers of a review panel: having random individuals redesign major parts of a working system would cause chaos as much as introducing bits of TWILIGHT fanfic into machine code would.
That might actually explain certain pieces of software I've encountered...
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Old 03-20-2018, 05:17 AM   #205
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What if the bureaucracy was completely staffed by regular citizens in a similar way to jury duty?

A bureaucratic elite wouldn't form, and the bureaucracy would completely follow the wishes of the ruling politicians, rather than the tail wagging the dog.

It would of course be completely inefficient.
You would have legions of jury consultants who spent their time studying the citizen-regulators in detail to figure out how to bamboozle them into whatever position the consultant's client favored. Whether this works or not is subject to some debate, but there is an entire industry devoted to it already.

It's related to the problem of term limits -- the decision maker doesn't build up subject-matter experience (and has limited incentive to do so), and is more dependent than the experienced career pol on staff and lobbyists to advise them on complex decisions.

Consider this -- you are randomly selected for a 2 year term as senior bureaucrat in ... pick the department of the gov't that least fits your interests. You know nothing of the subject matter and in 2 years you're back on the street your career having been interrupted for this, but the job pays well and has benefits in the meantime. If you don't have an interest in the subject-area, don't have knowledge in it, and don't plan to work in it, how much do you care about learning about it vs. just doing what the career staff say is a good idea.
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Old 03-20-2018, 05:51 AM   #206
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Consider this -- you are randomly selected for a 2 year term as senior bureaucrat in ... pick the department of the gov't that least fits your interests. You know nothing of the subject matter and in 2 years you're back on the street your career having been interrupted for this, but the job pays well and has benefits in the meantime. If you don't have an interest in the subject-area, don't have knowledge in it, and don't plan to work in it, how much do you care about learning about it vs. just doing what the career staff say is a good idea.
Sounds a bit like the compulsory military service in, say, South Korea.
Instead, then, of random jury selection, make it compulsory on completion of high school, deferrable to after college.

Your career isn't interrupted, and all citizens have a deeper understanding, and ideally, appreciation, of civics in their country.

Further, a society could combine this with other forms of obligatory service- Thailand has monastic service, there's military service, perhaps public works... Said citizens may not be able to start their chosen career path until they're almost thirty, but they have wide experience and a plurality of social networks to help.
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Old 03-20-2018, 06:41 AM   #207
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Sounds a bit like the compulsory military service in, say, South Korea.
Instead, then, of random jury selection, make it compulsory on completion of high school, deferrable to after college.

Your career isn't interrupted, and all citizens have a deeper understanding, and ideally, appreciation, of civics in their country.

Further, a society could combine this with other forms of obligatory service- Thailand has monastic service, there's military service, perhaps public works... Said citizens may not be able to start their chosen career path until they're almost thirty, but they have wide experience and a plurality of social networks to help.
I've seen a variant of that as a less militaristic version of the Federation Service in STARSHIP TROOPERS (the book). Voluntary service, with a chance of being offered a permanent career, for two years in return for citizenship.

Mostly people tell me this is a Bad Idea.

Monastic service?
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Old 03-20-2018, 07:45 AM   #208
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Monastic service?
Why not? If you consider whatever it is monks do to be important to society it's no different from conscription. If it's important to the individual it's the same thing as compulsory schooling. If its an option as an alternative to one of those, well, same as waiving one or the other of those for people enrolling in college or enlisting in the army.
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Old 03-20-2018, 08:19 AM   #209
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Monastic service?
I guess it's merely broadly customary, not legally compulsory, but Thai boys have to spend a period of monastic service before age 20 as a rite of passage. Generally it's only about 3 months, but some do it for shorter.

They also have mandatory draft for military service from 21 (for non-university students/graduates?), but they draw lots to see if it actually applies.

Some more detail from the 5th paragraph here.
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:24 AM   #210
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Monastic service?
I think that would either dilute the government with fatal unworldliness or dilute the clericy with ambition.

Also any occupation singled out as associated with the national interest will at best make policy recommendations based on the "when all you have is a hammer" and at worse interpret interest based on it's own selfish interests or even disregard others interest altogether.

In any case I think communitarian ideas go best with subsidiarity. Things like clans, villages, guilds, and brotherhoods of funny hats do that better. If the state is a confederation of the above, there are some "national service" ideas which would be a function of these. Which is not to say some communitarian projects can't be done at the national level nor that these are unhealthy. The Peace Corps and the CCC were pretty good ideas even if they painfully had a superficial resemblance some of the, odder and somewhat less prudent counterparts, in fashion in Continental Europe.

Also in modern times national service is expressed in honors rather then as a general requirement for the Franchise.

At the subsidiary level a lot more imagination can be shown and you can figure out what is a proper service to the local neighborhood. You can also have various ways to give out honors(which most states have) or for the state to do some of what is more graceful but in essence hustling for service. I once had armigerous units(units with their own coat of arms and distinct tradition; usually meaning a militia regiment, a regular army legion, a dynasty of naval(wet) vessels or starships) have a custom of having regular tourneys to raise money for veteran's benefits, and the furnishings of the depot with a clubhouse, a museum, a whatever. The events scheduled can be whatever imagination allows. I also accredited "patron-officers" as distinct from serving officers. This was derived from the similar British custom of having ceremonial ranks.

Having a minimum requirement for the franchise is not a bad idea in principal and sometimes works in practice. It easily becomes pernicious. Literary tests left a foul taste as much because the judges cheated as because the principal was bad(I remember in the back of my mind some story of a black man who could read several foreign languages but was flunked in English less because he did not know it but because the judges were corrupt and, oh by the way, he was black). On the other hand anything can be pernicious. But if there is to be a national service, assessing it is like assessing a video game; it must be difficult enough to make it worthwhile but also attainable. In any case as I said it works better at the subsidiary level and in having an extra array of honors available. Also from the gaming pov there is a lot of room for creativity that way.
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