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Old 10-12-2016, 08:29 AM   #11
fieryscubadivingaccident
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Minnesota
Default Re: Custom Cyberpunk Setting - Can someone explain Netrunning?

Wow, this forum is quite active, thanks for all the responses! I've followed @sir_pudding's advice and grabbed that issue of Pyramid.

@Refplace, that makes a lot of sense! To make sure I'm understanding it right: a hacker first enters a network. A hacker can move from node to node, but only if she has defeated any security programs running on nodes "ahead" of her (?) A hacker cannot advance to additional nodes until the programs on that one have been beaten? And "combat" is a division of turns into phases -- which represent the relative speeds of the hacker's computer and the system being invaded? I think I get it? I think what's still confusing me is how movement works. Can a hacker run a program from one system against another? further down the line? Can a hacker hop to one node, and then simply hop to another without defeating its defenses?

Regarding the concerns about netrunning bogging down gameplay: Perhaps I should have clarified that the my game concept is a retro-futurist cyberpunk game, a TL7 world with some TL8+ tech tossed in there.

I like the idea behind the 3e version of Netrunning because it is very similar to how the Metaverse is described in Snow Crash. While researching cyberpunk game systems for my concept, i kept finding a common complaint that 'hacking dungeons' can drag down gameplay; they often just become an exchange between the GM and whoever's playing a 'hacker' class. Snow Crash itself acknowledges the absurdity of the Neuromancer-style cyberspace as being limited to a tiny sliver of the population with neural interfaces. So, in Snow Crash, the Metaverse is accessible through terminals and VR headsets. I'll be following a similar model such that any player can enter cyberspace, regardless of whether or not they're a 'hacker' class. Plus, my players seem enthusiastic about the prospect of a 'hacking' game mechanic.
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Old 10-12-2016, 02:24 PM   #12
Refplace
 
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Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: Custom Cyberpunk Setting - Can someone explain Netrunning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fieryscubadivingaccident View Post
Wow, this forum is quite active, thanks for all the responses! I've followed @sir_pudding's advice and grabbed that issue of Pyramid.

@Refplace, that makes a lot of sense! To make sure I'm understanding it right: a hacker first enters a network. A hacker can move from node to node, but only if she has defeated any security programs running on nodes "ahead" of her (?) A hacker cannot advance to additional nodes until the programs on that one have been beaten? And "combat" is a division of turns into phases -- which represent the relative speeds of the hacker's computer and the system being invaded? I think I get it? I think what's still confusing me is how movement works. Can a hacker run a program from one system against another? further down the line? Can a hacker hop to one node, and then simply hop to another without defeating its defenses?
It actually feels like a slow week :)
A lot of regulars are still worn out from the kickstarter and posting increases, here and elsewhere that picked up during that month.

Glad I helped. Most computers will let you pass through them without security checks. Its if you stop to enter the computer that you have to pass its security. This is because for the internet to work we cant have to have a password for each step along the way to our destination.
From my house I log onto my home network, then I go to the internet but only have to log into my office network if I want to work remotely. From there most subsystems allow me access based on my credentials.
So certain things are allowed, others not allowed unless I am in the office and others may require additional passwords.
Other places on the net like my bank, email, and various websites allow me access with passwords while others require none.

And any hacking programs your running are typically from your home system against the target, regardless how far away it is.
Sometimes you may take over a remote system to attack by proxy. This limits you in some ways because of the remote computers capability but can slow down tracking attempts. A casual observer will think the attacker is the remote computer instead of your home computer.
__________________
My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
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Old 10-12-2016, 04:33 PM   #13
starslayer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Re: Custom Cyberpunk Setting - Can someone explain Netrunning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fieryscubadivingaccident View Post
Wow, this forum is quite active, thanks for all the responses! I've followed @sir_pudding's advice and grabbed that issue of Pyramid.

@Refplace, that makes a lot of sense! To make sure I'm understanding it right: a hacker first enters a network. A hacker can move from node to node, but only if she has defeated any security programs running on nodes "ahead" of her (?) A hacker cannot advance to additional nodes until the programs on that one have been beaten? And "combat" is a division of turns into phases -- which represent the relative speeds of the hacker's computer and the system being invaded? I think I get it? I think what's still confusing me is how movement works. Can a hacker run a program from one system against another? further down the line? Can a hacker hop to one node, and then simply hop to another without defeating its defenses?

Regarding the concerns about netrunning bogging down gameplay: Perhaps I should have clarified that the my game concept is a retro-futurist cyberpunk game, a TL7 world with some TL8+ tech tossed in there.

I like the idea behind the 3e version of Netrunning because it is very similar to how the Metaverse is described in Snow Crash. While researching cyberpunk game systems for my concept, i kept finding a common complaint that 'hacking dungeons' can drag down gameplay; they often just become an exchange between the GM and whoever's playing a 'hacker' class. Snow Crash itself acknowledges the absurdity of the Neuromancer-style cyberspace as being limited to a tiny sliver of the population with neural interfaces. So, in Snow Crash, the Metaverse is accessible through terminals and VR headsets. I'll be following a similar model such that any player can enter cyberspace, regardless of whether or not they're a 'hacker' class. Plus, my players seem enthusiastic about the prospect of a 'hacking' game mechanic.
I don't think anything you have posted is going to help with the bogging down of gameplay, nor addressed the absudity of cyberspace as a mirror of real-space.

The issue here is that cyberspace becomes an inherit party splitter, and it creates 'dual roles' for your combat classes (IE- you can be a real combat class, or a virtual combat class; and they will require completely different skills and abilities to be good at it).

By instead focusing on the kinetic effect of hacking (via a magic system) you keep the combat classes/players doing what they wanted to be doing- fighting things- you allow the computer-wizards to be computer-wizards (by being wizards under the guise of computer).

Example: The party is fighting some bad guys in front of a locked door. The bag guys also have some automated turrets, and half of the bad guys are cybernetically enhanced.

Later they encounter a laser grid defense system.

'Cyberworld' version:
The party comes under fire. The party combattants lay there own fire down and get the party to cover. Some intense rounds of combat take place during this period where the hackers have a much higher chance of getting hit (since they are not combat class guys), and the presumably heroic combat classes provide blocking coverage and covering fire for there more squishy hacker/scholar allies. Once the hackers are under cover and unlikely to take a stray bullet they jack in; given that the party is under heavy fire, one of the combat types jacks in as well to provide some additional support;
Combat now splits into two 'planes'
One in which the hackers are hulking digital barbarians in a fantasy landscape (and the real world fighter who came along with them is a weak flimsy bartender), the other where they are in a gunfight.

The GM now has to run dual combats, dual initiatives, and occasionally make the effects of one translate over to the other (perhaps one of the gnolls the fantasy hackers are fighting is actually a security system from one of the cyborgs- if that cyborg gets killed, the gnoll just vanishes- if a bullet manages to hit one of the hackers, then they just vanish from cyberspace while there body dies, etc). Its a nightmare to GM and hard for the players to keep track of, but at least everything is happening on roughly the same time-scale. Eventually between the fighter types shooting things, and the virtual barbarians 'hacking' the turrets to turn on the enemies the party won. The fighter type who accompanied the hackers questions if there was any utility in that.

Later on the party encounters a laser grid defense; One of the fighter types figures he is acrobatic enough to get past; but it will be tight. The hacker says they will help- they jack in. As of that moment the rest of the party is doing nothing while the hackers do whatever to either slow down or full on disable the laser-grid.

'computer wizardry' version;

The party comes under fire from the entrenched bad guys. One of the hackers activates a flight path predictor program (charm of lesser strengthen chance to increase party defense for those with cybernetics). Another one of the hackers activates a targeting scrambler (charm of lesser destroy chance to reduce enemy attack, against enemy cybernetics/machines only, resisted) This allows the party to much more easily get to cover.

Once under cover one of the hackers writes a program (over many multiple rounds of combat) to overheat the enemy cyborg's cybernetics (lesser destroy body to attempt to cause the affliction 'agony' to the cyborg)

The other hacker has a machine override program already written and activates that (greater control mind to take over the turret's and redirect them)

All the while the hackers are actively involved in the battle, making active decicions on when to be coding, and when to be hiding, or giving up concentration in order to dodge.

Later they encounter the laser grid, the acrobat says he can almost do it. The hackers say they will help then. The first hacker writes a program to enhance the cybernetics in the acrobat (lesser strengthen body- provides a bonus to dodging laser grids +4), and the other writes a program to slow down the grid tracking (lesser weaken mind- provides a penalty to laser grid scanning -4)- this takes them about a minute (but this is done via quick rolls)- and then the acrobatis WAY more likely to succeed (total of a net 8 bonus).

They could have tried to shut the laser grid off outright, but that would have been much harder

Has our intrepid hackers ever critically failed an effect than a potent anti-penetration program would initiate similar but stronger effects against the whole party.

No party splitting, and there is more reason for the hackers to HELP the party do things, than to just 'CSI' it while the rest of the group listens to the goings on in cyberspace.
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Old 10-12-2016, 06:30 PM   #14
Zarmonic
 
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Default Re: Custom Cyberpunk Setting - Can someone explain Netrunning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by starslayer View Post

'computer wizardry' version;
That IS an interesting idea. Seems like it would make more sense to use the Effect Shaping version of RPM rather than an Energy Accumulation because it works better as a metaphor for computer programing than Mana.

Magery, I can see being substituted by a special kind of computer talent.

The Ritual Adept advantage might just be replaced by the need for special gear: "You need your custom cyberdeck unless you want that hack to take forever!"

Path Skills...OK let me try this
Body = Cyberware
Chance = Programing, to add optimization/corruption
Crossroads = Connections (maybe used to set up firewalls too?)
Energy = Power/information
Magic = Another programing, but this one to use against the work of other hackers
Matter = Hardware
Mind = Software
Spirit = Artificial Intelligence
Undead = Uhm, I give up on that one.

You could also draw on the rules and gear needs for the Technomancer in MH5: Applied Xenology to flesh things out and make it more computer/software based.
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:05 PM   #15
starslayer
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Default Re: Custom Cyberpunk Setting - Can someone explain Netrunning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarmonic View Post
That IS an interesting idea. Seems like it would make more sense to use the Effect Shaping version of RPM rather than an Energy Accumulation because it works better as a metaphor for computer programing than Mana.

Magery, I can see being substituted by a special kind of computer talent.

The Ritual Adept advantage might just be replaced by the need for special gear: "You need your custom cyberdeck unless you want that hack to take forever!"

Path Skills...OK let me try this
Body = Cyberware
Chance = Programing, to add optimization/corruption
Crossroads = Connections (maybe used to set up firewalls too?)
Energy = Power/information
Magic = Another programing, but this one to use against the work of other hackers
Matter = Hardware
Mind = Software
Spirit = Artificial Intelligence
Undead = Uhm, I give up on that one.

You could also draw on the rules and gear needs for the Technomancer in MH5: Applied Xenology to flesh things out and make it more computer/software based.
Glad you like the idea- I think I prefer energy gathering because, at least in my mind, its more in line with coding- IE you can always add more code, it just keeps getting more complex as you go and harder to keep track of, and the bigger it is the more bugs you get(IE get a fail or crit fail)- Effect shaping is actually really reliable if you stay within reasonable limits.

Using 'ritual adept: Gadget(cyberwear)' would make perfect sense. Further since presumably not everyone/thing is vulnerable to cyber-assault it should get an additional limitation based on the % of the world that is cyber connected (I feel that the digital limitation is roughly analogous to the magical limitation so that part can stay the same- in something like shadowrun where 99% of the world exists in cyberspace in some way there would be no other limitation)
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:11 PM   #16
Refplace
 
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Location: Yukon, OK
Default Re: Custom Cyberpunk Setting - Can someone explain Netrunning?

You can also use the method described in several GURPS Books of Posession to hack.
However the method the key to a good session is not so much about how or if cyberspace is portrayed. Simply do it simultaneously.
This is where Cyberpunk with its multiple phases is a problem (one of them, the other is how complex it is) but simply saying each goes simultaneously and with the same turn sequence mostly resolves he issue.
A fast Decker with ATR can drag out the spotlight but that is ok as they paid for the extra actions.
Its no different than other players taking ATR or Extra Attack.
One second Turns does not allow a lot of activity for a computer.
Dont play a lot of back and forth for each part of an attack, instead any action that happens in less than a Turn should be resolved by a die roll.
__________________
My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
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