Binding - Decreased ST over time.

[the_matrix_walker]

I always assumed Bind had the standard Duration listed on B.101 for Advantages without a listed duration, and if you wanted it to last longer you needed Extended Duration (which is why I went to Reduced Time rather than Extended Duration on the Dissipation), and we were trying to make it phase out rather than wink out....
(I think I house-ruled it to minutes, maybe that was the source of my confusion)
It appears I was in error...

[munin]

Originally Posted by Bruno

... It seems to take a Switchable, +10% type enhancement to be able to turn it off voluntarily (I've asked about it before on the forum and that was the consensus) ...

That was before GURPS Psionic Powers. I think Cancellation would make sense now (also +10%) -- otherwise you could switch off a binding from the other side of the planet, which doesn't seem right.

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

I always assumed Bind had the standard Duration listed on B.101 for Advantages without a listed duration ...

I think that interpretation is consistent with the RAW. Is there anywhere that explicitly says Binding is permanent? (if there is, then it has a duration and the rule wouldn't apply)

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by munin

I think that interpretation is consistent with the RAW. Is there anywhere that explicitly says Binding is permanent? (if there is, then it has a duration and the rule wouldn't apply)

Binding is an attack; in GURPS Magic terms, Binding is "Instant", not "Permanent", like Innate Attack is. It doesn't have a Duration itself any more than Innate Attack has a Duration (without modification).

A Duration on Binding would mean you'd only have access to the Binding advantage for 1 minute at a time, not that the effects would be temporary. That's how everything with a Duration works - Telekinesed objects don't snap back to where you picked them up, damage blocked by DR doesn't re-assert itself, Flight movement doesn't "rewind", and so-forth.

EDIT: Consensus does appear to be that the bindings applied are permanent:
This thread is about the length of binding, although with nobody official chiming in the hive mind did seem pretty comfortable with "permanent".
Same with this thread.
This thread has Kromm posting directly in the thread and he made no contradiction on the point that Binding is permanent. He also OK'd the +10% value at that time (that eventually made its way into Psionic Powers).

[Bruno]

I've gone on a mad Binding Related Post tagging spree, by the by.

[the_matrix_walker]

This seems very broken then. I will continue to use my house-ruled duration.

Far too easy to make a Bind no mortal could ever escape from, which equates to dodge or die for very short points.

[munin]

Originally Posted by Bruno

... That's how everything with a Duration works - Telekinesed objects don't snap back to where you picked them up, damage blocked by DR doesn't re-assert itself, Flight movement doesn't "rewind", and so-forth. ...

: )

You're probably right that Binding is instantaneous (that's been assumed on the forums and not contradicted). But the Basic Set doesn't say whether the effects are instantaneous or temporary, and thus it's consistent with the RAW to apply the assumed duration of 10 seconds.

And it's a lot easier to adjust a temporary duration shorter or longer or even make it permanent, than to try to retroactively adjust a permanent duration -- and thus the game benefits from that interpretation as well.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Bruno

A Duration on Binding would mean you'd only have access to the Binding advantage for 1 minute at a time, not that the effects would be temporary. That's how everything with a Duration works - Telekinesed objects don't snap back to where you picked them up, damage blocked by DR doesn't re-assert itself, Flight movement doesn't "rewind", and so-forth.

No offence, but these are poor examples. Firing an AI is a transient momentary thing, but if it IS persistent, duration changes do not affect your access to the ability, but it's effects. TK has no ongoing duration and required constant concentration. Rewinding TK or Flight movement constitutes an action in and of itself.

None of these abilities create an ongoing effect. For a proper comparison, we should compare it to other abilities that create ongoing effects or matter and energy that hangs around regardless of what the character with the ability does. These would be...

Summoned Allies : Went by the RAW 10 seconds until Kromm decided minutes were fairer.
Obscure : Uses the Default duration of 10 seconds (and you can use it again, you have no restriction to repeated uses of your ability, It's ongoing duration has nothing to do with your advantage, just it's effects)
Snatcher: Lasts until you are done, or you use snatcher again.
Create: Lasts 10 seconds unless you spend character points to stabilize them.

Bind creates matter (or energy), and every other ability that does this has severe restrictions on how long they last.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

This seems very broken then. I will continue to use my house-ruled duration.

Far too easy to make a Bind no mortal could ever escape from, which equates to dodge or die for very short points.

Being Bound doesn't make you defenseless. You're just grappled, not unconcious! An Unbreakable Engulfing high ST bind is not nearly so cheap... but really, it's just as much a problem when it lasts for 10 seconds (letting someone casually put a shot into you) as when it lasts forever. Having you die because you were abandoned is actually rather less lethal than having someone kill you - you can be rescued when abandoned.

I don't see the problem really being with the bonds being indefinite - shackles are available at pretty early TLs for fairly reasonable prices, and they don't appreciably "wear off" either.

What I'm seeing the problem being is that the Escape option is a contest vs Binding level, which isn't how the Escape skill normally works. I'd rather leave the Break Free option as-is, and change the Escape option to work for the Escape skill as written - one roll after 1 minute, then additional rolls every 10 minutes with a chance to pull your shoulder and so forth. Definitely apply Talent as a penalty on the Escape roll, and add a new enhancement to also improve the base penalty on Escape rolls (+25% per -1? Handcuffs are a base -5 so I don't feel comfortable making it TOO expensive.) Engulfing would be modded to add a further penalty because that's really got to make it harder.

That change would make it work more like (equally permanent) equipment, making wriggling out eventually possible.

Otherwise, I'd suggest repricing it instead. The most direct comparison in advantages is Telekinesis - but it's not very direct. Makes it awkward as a benchmark but I can't find a better one.
* Bind can't strike or manipulate or move anything - only grapple (TK can grapple and lift and manipulate and strike),
* you can't cut your way out of TK nor can you be cut out by others (Bind is subject to all of the above without a +60% enhancement).
* Bind's base action is an Attack, not Concentrate, and has a range of 100 (TK's base action is Concentrate and has a range of 10)

You'd basically need Independent and Permanent on your TK, but you'd also need a huge swath of limitations. If you want to eyeball a

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I don't see the problem really being with the bonds being indefinite - shackles are available at pretty early TLs for fairly reasonable prices, and they don't appreciably "wear off" either.

Yes but you must be already helpless or cooperative to have those shackles put on, they can't be fired at you from 30 yards away. Big difference, especially in an ambush!

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Yes but you must be already helpless or cooperative to have those shackles put on, they can't be fired at you from 30 yards away. Big difference, especially in an ambush!

And the shackles are 0 points, and shackle-strength Binding is 40 points, so I'm pretty comfortable with that one.