The Fourth Attribute...

[larsdangly]

If I were the game designer, I'd look at all this discussion and stick with the original. Basically, there is no consensus about what limited changes would be good or bad, and most suggestions quickly spin out of control to a bigger, different core system. I suspect you could 'fix' most of what people see as weaknesses by twiddling a bit with the rules for buying talents and leave us with a tight-as-a-drum system of 3 stats.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

To many, if you've never played the Rules as Written, you've never played the game.

To many, a visit to McDonalds is a gastronomic treat.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by JLV

... But you ignored my main point -- which is you can solve the problem simply by saying that a character can have 2xIQ or 3xIQ talent/spell "slots" instead of creating an entirely new "attribute" to keep track of, and thus simultaneously eliminate the need to plus up IQ to 25+ point levels. If at IQ level 8, I can have 16 points of talents or spells, I don't have nearly as much need to plus up IQ quite as rapidly just for that purpose, and instead can do so simply to acquire the IQ necessary to learn a new talent, spell or language without having to sweat the slots nearly as much.

It would do that, yes. I just think I prefer having to spend experience for talents after character generation (instead of getting them with raised IQ), because not only does it remove the need for high IQ to get more talents/spells, but it also gives something to spend experience on besides attributes, which I think could go a long way to reducing bloat issues in all three attributes, not just IQ.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

You can say you're trying not to sound snarky but that doesn't mean you've succeeded. To say I've never played TFT is simply ridiculous. I've not played it "pure" and "exactly to the original rules as contained in the published rule books" so I'd accept that, but only that.

I would consider articles and variants published in the Space Gamer as "official" and the 6 attribute system came from such an article and was not my own invention. Therefore I was using an officially sanctioned variant. Did you never read any of the magazines?

Well, I'm sorry you've chosen to take it that way, but the fact of the matter is, your opinion on attribute bloat in a three-attribute (classic) TFT campaign, for example, is utterly worthless if you've only always played with six attributes. Playing "TFT" with six attributes is not playing TFT. I'm sure it's a wonderful game in it's own way, but it's just not TFT. It may be related to TFT, in much the same way that GURPS is related to TFT, but alas, it's a different game. This has nothing to do with being a rules purist or anything silly like that either; the point is that it's really hard to pass judgement on or effectively critique a game that you haven't actually played.

This is NOT to say, by the way, that your experience is entirely valueless; quite the reverse, actually. Since you've played in a way that was never used by quite a few of us, you undoubtedly have insights into, for example, how adding three new attributes works in actual play, and how it affects the rest of the rules; things that many of us have no way of knowing. Similarly, assuming you more or less used the combat rules as written, your insights there would remain totally valid.

No, I can't read, so naturally I never read any Space Gamers, or Interplays, or any of that stuff... Magazine articles contain a lot of variants along the way, most of them written to achieve or support one specific thing. Frankly, I don't consider every magazine article ever written as permanently changing the rules. Since so many of them contradict each other, that way lies madness.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Skarg

It would do that, yes. I just think I prefer having to spend experience for talents after character generation (instead of getting them with raised IQ), because not only does it remove the need for high IQ to get more talents/spells, but it also gives something to spend experience on besides attributes, which I think could go a long way to reducing bloat issues in all three attributes, not just IQ.

Actually, I agree completely with you on exactly that point. Unfortunately, I was jumped on hard here in the various forum threads when I said exactly the same thing you just did.

I think talents should be purchased separately from attributes points and not tied to IQ by number of talents a person can have. Certainly IQ should dictate which talents the character can learn (don't have IQ10? can't learn IQ10 (or above) talents).

To my mind attributes clearly have their own specific advantages, and talents clearly have theirs; if a character chooses to spend his XP developing new skills instead of increasing his basic attributes, then I think he or she ought to be allowed to do precisely that. There isn't any need to hobble either of them by tying them together. Plus it solves attribute bloat/Conan the Wizard quite nicely.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

To many, a visit to McDonalds is a gastronomic treat.

So you're saying TFT is the equivalent of "McDonalds" then?

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by JLV

So you're saying TFT is the equivalent of "McDonalds" then?

I suppose I was guilty of some inadvertent exaggeration when I said I never played TFT any other way. What I should have said was, "once I read the article in TSG and implemented the change to 6 attributes, we never played any other way going forward." Nevertheless, it's been amusing to see the Puritans come out of their foxholes. 😂😂😂

[sjard]

<Moderator>
Everyone take a step back, take a deep breath, and really dial back the snark.

Please keep it civil.

Thank you.
</Moderator>

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I suppose I was guilty of some inadvertent exaggeration when I said I never played TFT any other way. What I should have said was, "once I read the article in TSG and implemented the change to 6 attributes, we never played any other way going forward." Nevertheless, it's been amusing to see the Puritans come out of their foxholes. 😂😂😂

In that case, I apologize for saying your opinion was worthless -- all I can do is respond to what you write, not what you *really* mean. If you played 3-characteristic TFT campaigns prior to that time, then you probably do have valuable input into the issue.

However, I will remind you that I have repeatedly stated it's not a question of "puritanism" in any form; instead simply being a question of whether or not someone who, by their own statement, has "never played a TFT campaign any other way" (meaning without using 6 attributes) can contribute meaningfully to a discussion about a specific issue based on only three attributes, and you continue to say that "puritanism" is my primary motivator. Perhaps you should consider that point going forward.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by JLV

In that case, I apologize for saying your opinion was worthless -- all I can do is respond to what you write, not what you *really* mean. If you played 3-characteristic TFT campaigns prior to that time, then you probably do have valuable input into the issue.

However, I will remind you that I have repeatedly stated it's not a question of "puritanism" in any form; instead simply being a question of whether or not someone who, by their own statement, has "never played a TFT campaign any other way" (meaning without using 6 attributes) can contribute meaningfully to a discussion about a specific issue based on only three attributes, and you continue to say that "puritanism" is my primary motivator. Perhaps you should consider that point going forward.

Thanks for telling me what I should consider.