Customizing the Revelations Cycle

[Jason]

That is a good number of possible directions. Given the time constraints, I'm probably more likely to include "humans who get in the way but you're not allowed to kill them" over "humans who have real-life problems." Let's see how good my PCs are at cleaning up a crime scene after they kill a cop they think is an ethereal, and then have to deal with local law enforcement!

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Probably the idea was that giving it to an Elohite would avoid the temptation of favoring one particular faith over all others. Oops ...

If canon plot didn't require Khalid to be dangerously close to a Fall, I'd argue that Faith is one of the perfect Words for a Malakite Superior--their Choir embodies absolute loyalty and obedience to God, and supports the idea of a Holy War 110 percent.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by ISNorden

If canon plot didn't require Khalid to be dangerously close to a Fall, I'd argue that Faith is one of the perfect Words for a Malakite Superior--their Choir embodies absolute loyalty and obedience to God, and supports the idea of a Holy War 110 percent.

Has nobody suggested Kyriotate yet? I'll suggest Kyriotate. We need more of those on the Seraphim Council. Being a Kyriotate means faith and responsibility -- trusting that you can do right with the delicate lives of others -- and welcoming a Kyriotate into your body means having faith that they'll do right by you.

But I don't actually mind Khalid as an Elohite, myself. I feel like it's really only problematic if we subscribe to the Elohim-as-Vulcans approach. Going to Christian youth group type stuff growing up, I was often told, "faith is a choice, not a feeling," to remind us that a week away at "Jesus camp" might make us feel that the world is full of love and happiness, but that feeling will fade once we get back to our daily lives. We were told that sometimes you need to ignore your feelings of doubt and fear and depression, and choose to have faith that things have meaning and purpose, that God will take care of us in the long run if we hang on (even if "in the long run" means "after you die"). If that's not an Elohite trait -- making a choice to serve God over going by whatever feeling that evokes -- than what is?

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Jason

Has nobody suggested Kyriotate yet? I'll suggest Kyriotate. We need more of those on the Seraphim Council. Being a Kyriotate means faith and responsibility -- trusting that you can do right with the delicate lives of others -- and welcoming a Kyriotate into your body means having faith that they'll do right by you.

Kyriotate possession is also a great mechanic for those "in the spirit" moments at a charismatic revival. or explaining how an ordinary mortal prays for help and suddenly displays power/knowledge he doesn't usually have. Those could be justified as the result of others' Faith, all right! :-)

Originally Posted by Jason

But I don't actually mind Khalid as an Elohite, myself. I feel like it's really only problematic if we subscribe to the Elohim-as-Vulcans approach. Going to Christian youth group type stuff growing up, I was often told, "faith is a choice, not a feeling," to remind us that a week away at "Jesus camp" might make us feel that the world is full of love and happiness, but that feeling will fade once we get back to our daily lives. We were told that sometimes you need to ignore your feelings of doubt and fear and depression, and choose to have faith that things have meaning and purpose, that God will take care of us in the long run if we hang on (even if "in the long run" means "after you die"). If that's not an Elohite trait -- making a choice to serve God over going by whatever feeling that evokes -- than what is?

Again, you make your point very well. The other Choirs also have varying degrees of free will and temptations to avoid, though: a Malakite chooses to bind himself with oaths, and each new oath he takes to avoid Discord is another set of temptations he must resist. Given the events of the Revelations Cycle, I can easily see a heretical Khalid beginning as an Elohite...but becoming so horrified by his weakness after a near-Fall that he submits himself to God even more strongly, becoming a Malakite as some other Archangels did in the early War.

[Phoenix42]

Originally Posted by ISNorden

Kyriotate possession is also a great mechanic for those "in the spirit" moments at a charismatic revival. or explaining how an ordinary mortal prays for help and suddenly displays power/knowledge he doesn't usually have. Those could be justified as the result of others' Faith, all right! :-)

Playing (literally) devil's advocate here, charismatic revival "Holy Spirit" possession might even be more easily linked to Shedite activity, since the people in question often remain conscious of their actions, but feel the urge to act in certain ways... and in most cases, effects of pentecostalism, to name one, turn out to have been just somebody babbling nonsense; Shedites of Malphas and Kobal probably find revival meetings hilarious... [/off-topic]

I haven't been able to get the Final Trumpet yet (not available from warehouse23 or e23? Seriously?), but I always thought that casting Khalid as trying to be purely Muslim is rather short-sighted, and rather close-minded. Seeing the word of faith as potentially dangerous and on the brink of Falling - hey, I get that! But why only Muslims? Sure, there are radical muslims, but what about all the other kooks? What about bible-belt evangelicals? What about radical hindus and even buddhists? What about Northern Ireland? There is so much radical and destructive service to the word of Faith to go round that it seems strange to single out the Muslims*. I don't object to the idea that Khalid favours Islam the way that Laurence favours Catholicism (though to be fair, one might wonder whether he too should favour a particular branch, Shiite, Sunni, Sufism, or something more specific like Ishmailism...), but even Laurence has Bodhisattvas in his ranks... I dunno, the idea that an Archangel would allow himself to be drawn into one religion rather than the surrounding ideas seems a bit too human (and also, in this case, decidedly western) to me. Uriel was affiliated with Christianity, but he saw it through the lens of the Purity of God's Creation, and that was what caused him to ...well, whatever it was happened to him... ;). Surely it is the radical element, not the Islamic element, that is endangering Khalid's sanctity?

So when it comes to customizing, I would consider the element of pure Islam as a customizable option for Khalid - that being said, again I haven't read the original sourcebook, just online material of which I am not sure whether any of it represents the originals.


edit: sorry for going off on a tangent on this one, but seeing as the thread title is rather ambiguous, and this always struck me as odd, I thought I'd bring it up - I'd love to see everyone else's perspective on the matter :)



*I'm probably sticking my neck out writing this in an American forum only 4 days after the 9/11 anniversary, but there you go...

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

I haven't been able to get the Final Trumpet yet (not available from warehouse23 or e23? Seriously?), but I always thought that casting Khalid as trying to be purely Muslim is rather short-sighted, and rather close-minded. ...

So when it comes to customizing, I would consider the element of pure Islam as a customizable option for Khalid - that being said, again I haven't read the original sourcebook, just online material of which I am not sure whether any of it represents the originals.

You know, I haven't decided how I want to handle that yet exactly, but I have a couple adventures between now and then (i.e., redoing "No Dinero" and doing "Fall of the Malakim" before even introducing Khalid). It's interesting that this cycle of books was written before September 11th, 2001; I wonder whether the story might have been rather different after those events, as a matter of sensitivity and standing up to rampant Islamophobia.

Offhand, I don't think it's unreasonable to characterize Khalid's instability in ways unrelated to the particular faith he's chosen Faith to represent, so much as a product of his general social isolation and distrust from a more Christian-leaning Heaven. (And with the US poised to veto a Palestinian state in the UN, I can't help but feel like the issues here are still an apt parallel to sociocultural tensions than to actual philosophical tensions...) But that's just me thinking aloud before I figure out how to best update this when that time comes.

[Phoenix42]

Originally Posted by Jason

You know, I haven't decided how I want to handle that yet exactly, but I have a couple adventures between now and then (i.e., redoing "No Dinero" and doing "Fall of the Malakim" before even introducing Khalid). It's interesting that this cycle of books was written before September 11th, 2001; I wonder whether the story might have been rather different after those events, as a matter of sensitivity and standing up to rampant Islamophobia.

Good point - most likely it would have been - if I remember rightly, the media of the 1980s and '90s had Muslim terrorists (TM) as a kind of trope that replaced the Communist spy (TM) of the previous decades - not realising that the next decade would make that trope uncomfortably real. So very likely the whole thing would be different now... but for what kind of different, I guess one would have to ask Beth...

Offhand, I don't think it's unreasonable to characterize Khalid's instability in ways unrelated to the particular faith he's chosen Faith to represent, so much as a product of his general social isolation and distrust from a more Christian-leaning Heaven. (And with the US poised to veto a Palestinian state in the UN, I can't help but feel like the issues here are still an apt parallel to sociocultural tensions than to actual philosophical tensions...) But that's just me thinking aloud before I figure out how to best update this when that time comes.

Thanks - and aptly put - I always got the impression (and I could well be leaning too far off-canon here) that IN was less about the sociocultural and more about the philosophical angles, as far as positioning of superiors was concerned. I always imagine that angels (especially) care far less for worldly politics than humans would initially assume, and when they do, it is in a way that humans find surprising, to say the least; after all, it's a war for souls, not for human welfare or taxes, and politics are remarkably bad at measurably influencing the common man in a precise way (will raising taxes make people pray more or less...?).

As in the Palestine issue you mentioned, I'd be very surprised if Khalid's servitors weren't somewhere near the UN conference tables, but their angle may be an entirely different one - one might consider, e.g., that Khalid is trying to boycott the Palestinian liberty exactly because foreign oppression (in this case by the Israelis) leads to stronger faith, whereas liberty and political stability generally leads to secularisation... Heaven works in mysterious ways, after all ^^

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Jason

It's interesting that this cycle of books was written before September 11th, 2001; I wonder whether the story might have been rather different after those events, as a matter of sensitivity and standing up to rampant Islamophobia.

The Final Trumpet's Khalid comes direct from the French INS/MV, complete with rabid fanaticism of the Islam-flavored variety. (As opposed, you see, to rabid fanaticism of the Christian-flavored variety.) If I recall correctly, the translation was nearly word-for-word from the original French. I cannot recall off the top of my head -- and have no PDF to refer to! -- if odd references to Santa hats, in his Rites, got deleted before or after FT.

(Other nearly word-for-word translations, as far as I can puzzle out with no actual French m'self, include Haagenti and I think Kobal. Amazing how many word-cognates are there, if you can lay two books side by side! English really does mug other languages for spare vocabulary.)

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

I haven't been able to get the Final Trumpet yet (not available from warehouse23 or e23? Seriously?),

You were saying?
http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG30-3311

(And, if this is the 15th of September, 2011, check out http://e23.sjgames.com/new.html for how I knew that URL above. O;> )

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

I cannot recall off the top of my head -- and have no PDF to refer to! -- if odd references to Santa hats, in his Rites, got deleted before or after FT.

Oddly, Santa hat invocation modifier was in FT, but got cut for Superiors 3. I let my players use it once anyway to summon Khalid when they were about to get wrecked by some demons. (Yeah, they just happened to have it handy. They were escorting a redemption candidate possessing a host dressed as Santa. It was from "A Symphonic Disturbance on 34th Street.")