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Old 02-23-2010, 03:11 PM   #11
Sam Baughn
 
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

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Originally Posted by Azinctus View Post
My rough guess is that Flak armour is DR10-15, Power Armour is DR30-40, Terminator Armour DR100 and Heavy Tanks DR150-200.

However with a Lasgun as a Laser Carbine all that has to be increased....

Well I'm not too clear on how I would do it. Tell us more about how you are going to set up 40k. What are your ballpark figures for armour? Will Imperial Guard be able to kill Marines with concentrated Lasgun fire?
Armour seems to lag at least one TL behind weapons. I'd probably class normal marine armour as equivalent to TL 9 Powered Combat Armour (possibly with some ablative add-on plates for the extra armour on the shoulders, chest and shins), so a laser carbine firing hotshots and aiming at the chinks in armour could get through it fairly easily (DR 18/13 effectively) and even just blazing away they could well cause some damage to the limbs (effective DR 25, so a 22% chance of causing at least 1 HP injury per hit). However, this is almost never going to be enough to cripple a limb and space marines will have plenty of HP (about 20) and HT (at least 13) to soak up damage, so it will still take a lot of hits to bring one down.

Terminator Armour might be similar to a TL 9 combat walker or a TL 10 HEX suit. Either way it's pretty much immune to small arms and melta-guns and lascannon are far from a guaranteed kill with the stats I'm using at this point.

To some extent, I'd agree that 40k looks a lot more like TL6+1^ than TL9-10^, but there are a lot of sources which say their materials are significantly stronger than modern ones and they obviously handle fairly massive amounts of energy and mass on a regular basis (mile long spaceships aren't exactly the kind of thing you expect to see from a society which has barely got the hang of atomic power). It also loses the convenience of using lots of existing material, unless I just say that a lascannon counts as a TL6 anti-tank gun or something.

It will be difficult to make orks and tyranids effective against TL 9 armour, but I think that it's easier to give them Imbuements or something than it would be to bring the Imperium's technology level low enough that a large animal can tear apart their tanks. Even though I'm not a big fan of 'ork axes can cut thorugh power armour if the orks think they can', I'm not a huge fan of 'power armour is actually only as good as medieval plate' either.
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:15 PM   #12
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

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Even though I'm not a big fan of 'ork axes can cut thorugh power armour if the orks think they can'
Isn't this canonical? I'm not a big WH4K guy or anything, but I've seen this explanation several times.
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

Last bit on weapons for a while...

Missiles are a bit of a tricky issue. Most Imperial Guard missile launchers (at least in modern depictions) seem to be fairly large, probably the size of an Ultra-Tech 100mm Tactical Missile Launcher. Unfortunately, they are generally portrayed as less effective against tanks than lascannons and melta-guns and 100mm shaped charge warheads (probably the best match for krak missiles) do a lot more damage than UT laser weapons, even when they have to punch through laminate armour.

I could declare that the Imperium doesn't have access to TL9 explosives and downgrade the damage, but their grenades, explosive tank shells, demolition charges and bolt warheads all seem to be pretty powerful.

EM armour would help reduce the effectiveness of shaped charge warheads, but I've never seen it mentioned in the source material and the obvious solution would be to just switch to kinetic-kill missiles.

I think I'll just say that most of the guard missile launchers mentioned in the novels are actually only 64mm IMLs (this makes a certain amount of sense in Gaunt's Ghosts at least - they are light infantry and they do seem to run around with them quite casually) and that the larger ones shown on the recent models do actually cause more damage than lascannons, but are nerfed in the tabletop rules to account for their lack of accuracy and slow rate of fire which isn't really covered by the rules.
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Isn't this canonical? I'm not a big WH4K guy or anything, but I've seen this explanation several times.
40k canon is a fairly loose thing, but I think it's fan speculation. There is a bit of in-character text from a member of the Adeptus Mechanicus (Genetor Lukas Anzion - an expert in genetics) which says that many ork devices work thanks to their gestalt psychic field and they tend to work more in the way that orks think they should, but he could well be mistaken or simply lying for propaganda purposes. In any event, he never mentioned 'choppas' as one of the devices which worked in this way.

One edition of the rules had ork choppas getting better armour penetration than other hand weapons and I think some people thought that this had to be some kind of magic power, but I believe the rule was just intended to represent the fact that they were very large; the generic version of the rule in the fourth edition rulebook was simply called 'heavy weapons', IIRC.

It is however a plausible enough theory. There are plenty of examples of humans in the 40k setting seeming to get better performance out of machines through ritual behaviour and the power of faith, so it seems perfectly believeable that alien races can get similar effects. It also plays nicely to the theme that science and logic will often be beated by pig-headed ignorance and blind faith, which is a classic 40k trope.
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

40K is a direct port of the Warhammer rules to space. In a very real sense Power Armour is exactly as good as Medieval Plate Armour and a Bolter is a rapid fire crossbow.

To take that approach to a GURPS conversion would be silly. But the Imperium is meant to be medieval in philosophy and restricted in technology. Only the tech priests understand anything of how the gear works and they are very superstitious. just because the Boltgun uses an advanced explosive doesn't mean the tech priests would commit heresy and apply that recipe to an anti-tank missile.

Orks are meant to operate by brute force, Tyranids too. They might have armour divisors and cinematic strength (lots of striking strength for instance) due to high quality materials or handwavium biology but I wouldn't like to see magic powers handed out where none were before.
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Old 02-23-2010, 04:42 PM   #16
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

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Originally Posted by Azinctus View Post
Orks are meant to operate by brute force, Tyranids too. They might have armour divisors and cinematic strength (lots of striking strength for instance) due to high quality materials or handwavium biology but I wouldn't like to see magic powers handed out where none were before.
Cinematic physics combined with raw strength and savagery is explicitly one of the possible justifications for Imbuements given Power-Ups 1. It suggests just such an approach for Dungeon Fantasy style barbarians.
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Old 02-23-2010, 05:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

Enough about weapons, let's try a vehicle: the Leman Russ Battle Tank.

First of all, we need an estimate of the vehicle's mass. This is fairly easy, since it is explicitly stated as weighing 60 tons in Imperial Armour vol.1 and the few places where it is mentioned in the novels mostly agree with this figure. It doesn't say if that is loaded or empty weight, but it won't make a huge difference either way, so let's say empty. Using the normal rules for machine HP, that gives it 197 HP - for the sake of convenience, I'll round that off to 200 HP.

Then we need to estimate it's Hnd/SR. As far as I'm aware, the LR doesn't have a reputation for being especially tricky to handle or prone to overturning, so I'd say normal tank stats are fine here. All the tanks in High-Tech are -3/5, while the Light Battle tank in Ultra-Tech is -2/5. The former seems more likely to me.

Next, we estimate it's HT. Like most Imperial vehicles it seems to be very reliable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial Armour Vol. 1
The Leman Russ is not a sophisticated vehicle and contains little in the way of advanced targetting or control devices. What it lacks in technology, it makes up for in ruggedness and reliability. A Leman Russ can survice the most extreme of climates and keep operating. From the freezing chill of methane swamps and ice worlds to the blistering heat of sulphur deserts. Through snow, sand or jungles the Leman Russ never fails. it can withstand all but the very worst nature can throw at it and keep fighting.
So I think that HT 12 is justified. It doesn't seem to be especially prone to catching fire, but it has been shown to explode sometimes, so I'll add an 'x' to that.

Top Speed is given as 35 kph on road, which translates to a move of 10.6 yards per second. That's pretty slow, but the LR is often portrayed as a fairly lumbering vehicle. Round it up and call it move 11. Acceleration isn't given, but 2 yards per second per second seems reasonable - that's the same as the TL 9 Light battle tank, the T72, the Panzer IV and the M4 Sherman.

LWt. is just empty weight plus fuel, ammunition, stowage and crew weight. Six crew at 200 lbs. per man is 1,200 lbs. Ammunition is 40 rounds for the battle cannon; probably at least as large as the 100mm tank shells in Ultra-Tech, so 1,600 lbs, plus around 600 rounds for each heavy bolter - assuming it has the lascannon hull mount and two heavy bolter sponsons, that would be 1,200 rounds equivalent to Ultra-tech Assault cannon ammunition... which seems to have an inconsistent weight (12 lbs. for 34 shots in the weapon table, but 1 lbs. per shot in the ammunition table). Let's assume that is meant to be 1 lbs. per shot and call it another 1,200 lbs. No idea how much fuel it carries or what it weighs, but it seems to have a fairly long range so several hundred gallons at least, with a density probably between 5 and 10 pounds per gallon. I guess 3,000 lbs for fuel, minimum. Add half a ton of stowage and you get a nice round 4 tons, for 64 tons total loaded weight and a Load of 2.5 tons.

The Leman Russ isn't any longer than than the tanks is High-Tech, but it is significantly taller and chunkier, justifying SM+5.

Occupancy is six crew. It has life support, so counts as Sealed at least.

DR is the tricky bit. Imperial Armour gives us some numbers:
Code:
Superstructure:	180mm
Hull: 		150mm
Gun Mantlet: 	100mm
Turret: 	200mm
Unfortunately, it doesn't clarify whether those are maximum thicknesses, minimum thicknesses, average thicknesses, frontal armour or what. It also doesn't give us a material or clarify if the numbers are the actual thickness of the armour or it's equivalent protection.

In Imperial Armour vol. 2 we get a bit more detail about the armour of the Predator and Land Raider which is presented in a similar format. From this we can deduce that it's probably the actual thickness of the frontal armour. The descriptions there generally indicate that top quality Imperium vehicle armour (I guess it's a bit of an assumption that the LR has armour as good as astares tanks, but I think it's a fairly reasonable one - the marines aren't really known for their especially good tanks) is about three times as protective as 'conventional steel' of the same thickness (or about DR 8.3 per mm) although it isn't clear against what kind weapon this is judged (if we use laminate armour for instance, this is very relevant as it offers different protection against different attacks). Anyway, it looks like the Leman Russ has about 1,300 frontal DR against at least some attacks, if we go by those numbers.

Another way to look at it is to see what kinds of threat it should be able to stop. In both the wargame and the fiction, missile launchers often fail to penetrate it's frontal armour (or at least fail to do enough damage to stop it) so a DR of at least 1,000 against shaped charge warheads seems necessary. On the other hand, lascannons and melta-guns can reliably penetrate it, which suggests no more than DR 400 against beam weapons unless I give pretty hefty bonuses to melta and lascannon damage with those special charge packs.

I think that DR 500 with the laminate option seems like a fairly reasonable compromise. That's what the TL 9 light tank in Ultra Tech has.

Rear armour is lighter, but there is even less data to go on there than for the front armour. 200 seems like a good enough guess, matching the Ultra-Tech tank.

The only source I've been able to find for imperial tank range is the novel Honour Guard. In that it seems that they are capable of travelling more than 600 km but less than 1,000 km (although it's possible that they were carrying extra fuel, this isn't mentioned and it seems like a reasonable enough figure, given that imperial technology is generally noted for it's efficiency and endurance). Call it 500 miles.

For locations, it's obviously got two tracks and a turret. I guess that the commander's weapon mount would be an exposed station, while the two sponsons would probably count as small turrets (arguably - they might simply be extensions of the hull). I'm not clear on whether the front hull weapon mount should count as a turret as well, I guess probably not. That gives us 2C,T,2t,X.

Code:
Vehicle		ST/HP	Hnd/SR	HT	Move	LWt.	Load	SM	Occ.	DR	Range	Locations
Leman Russ	200	-3/5	12x	2/11	64	2.5	+5	6S	500/200	500	2C,T,2t,X
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Old 02-23-2010, 06:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

I don't think that using weapons straight out of UT will ever get you a perfect fit to 40K, you're going to have to do a lot of tweaking.
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Old 02-23-2010, 10:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

Very Clever handling of the bolter. Any thoughts on the Auto cannon? Just figured I'd ask b/c I remember them absolutely tearing up the battlefield in the tabletop game.
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Perfect Organism's Warhammer 40,000 conversion thread.

I really like the approach you've taken, have you tried testing the stats out to see if they are coherient with the 40K game mechanics?

I wonder if you could develope a series of martial arts based on the descriptions in the 40K fluff?
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