[Supers] Speedster build: how many attacks?

[Phantasm]

One of my villains is a speedster, with Extra Attack 3 (Multi-Strike), ATR 2, ETS, and a bunch of other traits.

My main question right now is: what is the maximum number of attacks this guy can land without penalty, and how many with penalties for such things as rapid strikes?

Basically, I want to make sure I'm not making him overpowering, even w/ only ST 13 and superfine shortswords.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

One of my villains is a speedster, with Extra Attack 3 (Multi-Strike), ATR 2, ETS, and a bunch of other traits.

My main question right now is: what is the maximum number of attacks this guy can land without penalty, and how many with penalties for such things as rapid strikes?

Basically, I want to make sure I'm not making him overpowering, even w/ only ST 13 and superfine shortswords.

Extra attack 3 means 4 attacks per attack maneuver, or 5 on an all-out attack (double). ATR 2 allows taking 3 maneuvers per turn. ETS has no effect. Basic is not clear on what happens to your defenses if one of your actions is an all-out attack; if we assume the last one controls unless someone uses a wait to interrupt, you can make 12 attacks without penalty, or 14 with minimal penalty.

As for how overwhelming this is, campaign-dependent. A superfine shortsword at ST 13 does 2d+1(2), it is not difficult to be entirely immune to that.

[zoncxs]

ATR 2 means 3 maneuvers per turn, EA 3 means 4 attacks per maneuver.

If they only take a regular attack each turn, then its 12 attacks total.

AoA Double for each maneuver means 15 attacks.

AoA Double and Rapid strike means 18+

I once ran a high skill leveled character who could rapid punch 13+ times each maneuver.

But yeah, speedsters are extremely deadly when you don't gimp them (as in forget they have super speed)

[Anaraxes]

Stacking mostly adds, in the context of a single Maneuver, which each option only being able to be taken once per Maneuver (not per attack).

• ATR is one extra Maneuver of any kind
• Extra Attack is one extra attack if you happen to take an Attack Maneuver. It's not an extra Attack Maneuver -- that is, not ATR (Attack Only), but rather +1 attack to your base Maneuver you get for free.
• If any Extra Attack is used for an AoA, _all_ Extra Attacks have to use that bonus. But -- an important but! -- if you choose AoA (Double), the entire series only gets one additional attack, not one per Extra Attack. (See B54).
• At most one attack can be exchanged for a Rapid Strike. (Also B54). Or Comnbination or Dual-Weapon Attack, per Kromm.

These rules apply per attack Maneuver. So, I get:

Base Maneuver:
AoA (Double), exchange one for Rapid Strike
Attack
RS Attack (at -6)
RS Attack (at -6)
EA 1: Attack
EA 2: Attack
EA 3: Attack

for a total of 6 attacks. That's per Maneuver, so if your ATR 2 is used for 3 total Attack Maneuvers, you're up to 18 attacks. You could move around exactly which attack gets swapped for the RS, but that doesn't change the total.

MA127 introduces an option for Rapid Strike, intended for cinematic games, which allows more than two Attacks in an RS, at -6 per extra attack. The wording goes up to four *(at -18) and ends with "and so on", implying there's no cap. So in theory, even without ATR or EA, you could have an unlimited number of attacks in one turn, even though they're not going to hit.

You might reach for the "can't reduce skill below 10" rule from Deceptive Attack to limit the number of extra attacks (but that would be a houserule). And the general "can't attempt a roll if effective skill is below 3" rule would also prevent the rules munchkinism from devolving into a rules lawyer argument about how an infinite number of attacks with any finite probability of success will necessarily produce an infinite number of critical successes.

[Phantasm]

Okay, that is a bit overpowering, or more to the point overwhelming for my personal dice-rolling! It's a lot of dice....

I think I'll tone the Extra Attacks back to EA 1, though I'm keeping Multi-Strike so he can hit twice with the same sword each maneuver. That'll drop me to 6 unmodified attack rolls per turn.

(And yeah, our brick is immune to the swords, even with the AD (2). Unstoppable force, meet immovable object.)

[Culture20]

Well, assuming this character makes sound tactical choices (unlike Quicksilver, punching fifty times while standing still), then you won’t need to make a large number of attack rolls; the first manuever will be a full speed movement, then attacks, then a full movement again. Still can be OP, especially since they’ll probably be attacking a different character in the back every second and disappearing behind cover for others’ turns.

[Boge]

I can see it now:

*rolls* "Hit once!" *rolls again* "That's two!" *rolls* "That's five hits!" *rolls* "Hit all 12!! Okay, roll 12 times for your defense."

*rolls eyes instead*

[Anthony]

I'm not sure why 4th edition decided to use different rules for rapid melee attacks vs rapid ranged attacks. Possibly because of using different weapons, but that seems like a fixable issue.

[rkbrown419]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I'm not sure why 4th edition decided to use different rules for rapid melee attacks vs rapid ranged attacks. Possibly because of using different weapons, but that seems like a fixable issue.

Supers suggests using the ranged attack rules for large groups. I don't see why it shouldn't be used for speedsters.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

And the general "can't attempt a roll if effective skill is below 3" rule would also prevent the rules munchkinism from devolving into a rules lawyer argument about how an infinite number of attacks with any finite probability of success will necessarily produce an infinite number of critical successes.

Though it'll also produce an infinite number of hit yourself for full damage critical failures. "OK, you go into a wild frenzy of infinite attacks. You utterly destroy your foe. You also chop yourself to pieces, way past any possible resurrection, and destroy all your equipment and everything the enemy was carrying. Were you carrying anything useable as a missile? I'm not sure if you shreded the rest of the party with an infinite number of Hitting the Wrong Target misses or not."