03-18-2018, 06:28 AM | #51 | |
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: Increasing lethality
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Halving bullet damage (or pi damage in general) and adding a (2) is something that has been proposed as a fix to gun damage ever since the introduction of the concept of armor divisors.
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03-18-2018, 09:19 AM | #52 | |
Join Date: Feb 2012
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Re: Increasing lethality
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03-18-2018, 02:43 PM | #53 | |
Join Date: May 2007
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Re: Increasing lethality
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In some 50 years of studying military history I recall two (2) instances of soldiers being able to function after a torso hit by a full power rifle. One of which I can not recall details. The other was a Commando physical training instructor in a previous incarnation. He took the hit then was able to crawl c. 1/2 mile to a beach for recovery. That's it. I'm sure I haven't exhausted the possibilities but would be happy to hear other tales. |
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03-19-2018, 12:14 AM | #54 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: Increasing lethality
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Once you start getting into stuff like a 7mm Mauser, though, that goes down significantly. Because the increased mass/size of the slug and overall energy is enough to break bones even on a fairly glancing hit, and if it hits something hard enough to be deflected it might be even worse. And once you're into the area of a .338 Lapua it's almost certainly going to kill or cripple on any hit that does not simply scratch the person's skin. This is where the overpenetration rules are too generous to characters - something with that much mass and power can deliver injuries through contact that a lighter, fast moving round won't as it passes through the body. Really the amount of overpenetration should be some fraction of the overall mass and energy of the round, instead of a flat number. A 20mm solid AP round isn't going to be limited to the same overpenetration limit as a 5.45 from AK74. Often this doesn't matter because it kills anyway, but it could be potentially unrealistic for very tough characters like robots, who would basically be unharmed by the latter and annihilated by the former. Last edited by VonKatzen; 03-19-2018 at 12:20 AM. |
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03-19-2018, 12:38 AM | #55 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Increasing lethality
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I take your point to an extant, but I think your down playing hand gun rounds here (certainly by comparing them to baseball bats*)! Hand gun rounds are still more than capable of penetrating to organs so I'm not sure about rifles having better odds of reaching these places than hand guns. (more complicated stuff like fragmentation or deflection in the body reaching those places can work for both in a variety of ways here). Don't get me wrong yes rifles rounds being far more energetic leave in general worse wounds as I agreed earlier, and all else being equal you have more chance of hand gun round (that does't penetrate to something 'vital', leaving less serious damage in it's wake both in the immediate and long term. But ultimately a lot of the time it's where you hit not what you hit with, and while energy of the round can compensates for that it can only do so, so much *yes I know you can actually do a lot of damage with blunt impact like baseball bast, but it really not a like for like comparison of how it does damage and the factors involved in the outcome. Quote:
That way bigger, larger rounds will do more immediate damage (and will still bleed badly) I personally don't like that because its a bit threshold-y in effect for hand held weapons, and for me the massive bleeding after high power wounds does the job anyway. Except for pi- where I do use it because I like the effect it gives on very high energy but very small or AP rounds. But if you think hand guns do too much damage now on non vital areas, this will only increase it for any hand guns doing Pi+ whether from basic size or HP etc! Another way to do it is increase the cap itself but have the injury multiplier only apply to bleeding. If you make the overpenetration cap say 2xHP so an average person will be 20pts a hand gun round will still do the same immediate damage (e.g 2d or 2d+2) and bleeding as it would under the current rules. But more energetic rounds will be able to dump as much as 20pts of immediate damage in. And of course if they also big enough to get a Pi+ or Pi++ injury mod will get the extra bleeding as well. One point though if applied like this it makes it twice as hard for a bullet to exit i.e actually physically overpenetrate as they normally would. So maybe when calculating that particular aspect go back to the 1xHP cap to assess it. But again this is all extra work, and if you think the current bleeding rules gets you to the same end place anyway it's not worth doing. I only really suggest it for the point you raised Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-19-2018 at 09:49 AM. |
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03-19-2018, 12:59 AM | #56 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Increasing lethality
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Same chance as occurs for limb hits becoming and Artery/veins hits. |
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03-19-2018, 01:16 AM | #57 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: Increasing lethality
You're right, it's 1/6. I was probably thinking of a house rule I read somewhere.
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03-19-2018, 01:38 AM | #58 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Increasing lethality
Cool. Yeah I think I've seen a similar house rule on these forums, IIRC it was based on taking a rough guess of the amount of space the GURPS vitals take up in the torso. I could see the reasoning, but to be frank once you start breaking out anatomy in this context you are opening a can of worms anyway!
Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-19-2018 at 01:42 AM. |
03-19-2018, 04:25 AM | #59 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: Increasing lethality
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03-19-2018, 05:02 AM | #60 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Increasing lethality
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So the house rule is to reach the vitals you have get through a SM+1 layer of normal Torso first*. This is in reference to the anatomical tendency for most animal to protect their vital organs (subject to them still being able to do their jobs). But also to get away from the game situation were tiny 1pt damage attacks from very low power attacks causing big issues with vital hits. This situation is compounded by the minimum 1pt damage for really small non cr attacks! It also makes hunting elephants and similar big animals at low TLs harder! So if I really wanted to model really fat or muscley people's vitals being more protected** as well as having lots of HP I might say that protective layer over vitals thicker than their SM would otherwise make it. Of course again if we're getting that fiddly I also probably adjudicate on case by cases basis as even very fat or very muscly people don't have that extra mass even distributed over each vital organ! *I can't take credit for this one, I cribbed it from someone here! **whee anecdote time! I used to know a big, fat HGV driver (trucker) who got into a fight with some blokes one night. And only after the fight noticed the handle of the knife sticking out of his prodigious gut! The knife had not penetrated through his "outer layers" so to speak, so a quick swabbing, some stitches, a dressing and a shot for infection later he was went home from a knife wound that would have reached something worse on a slimmer abdomen. Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-19-2018 at 05:27 AM. |
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