Grappling and AOA: Double

[Dragondog]

One of my players wants to use the first attack of an AOA: Double to Grapple and the other attack for one of the Actions after a Grapple. Is that possible per RAW?

[vierasmarius]

It is. In fact, it gets special mention in Martial Arts (see Grab and Smash!, pg 118).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

One of my players wants to use the first attack of an AOA: Double to Grapple and the other attack for one of the Actions after a Grapple. Is that possible per RAW?

Sure! Just watch:

Originally Posted by MA114

Double: You may use AOA (Double) to try two grappling
moves, subject to the restrictions under Grappling and
Multiple Attacks (p. 128).

Originally Posted by MA128

Grappling and Multiple Attacks
Any grappling move that counts as an attack is permitted
as part of a multiple attack sequence during a maneuver.
You must usually attempt different actions (takedown and
pin, kick and break free, break free and grapple, etc.). You
can’t make repeated attempts at a takedown, pin, or lock; try
to injure an opponent repeatedly through strangling or an
Arm Lock, Neck Snap, etc.; or take multiple shots at break-
ing free. However, you can try the same move against dif-
ferent body parts or opponents, grapple and attempt an
instant follow-up, or – if making an attack that must follow
a parry, such as Arm Lock – insert attacks between the parry
and the follow-up. For instance, if you parried using Judo
and then made two attacks, you could feint and then use
Arm Lock.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

One of my players wants to use the first attack of an AOA: Double to Grapple and the other attack for one of the Actions after a Grapple. Is that possible per RAW?

The only thing you watch for are things called out explicitly as "on your next turn," and even that is a judgement call.

[Dragondog]

Cool, thanks.

[Tomsdad]

Can I just check something in reference to the restrictions in MA on repeating the same Grappling move and how TG inter plays with that.

I can do an AoA(double) to:

First Attack = Grapple (say two handed to the body)

and then

Second attack = Improve my grapple without changing it i.e still using two hands on the body?

Also while MA128 says explicitly you can't attempt two or more break free attempts with any version of rapid strike or AoA(double) etc, since in TA a break free is now an attack can you now make multiple break free attacks (using the various normal options for getting more than one attack)?

[McAllister]

I believe TG lacks any "do the same thing twice" restriction, but you're not even talking about doing the same thing twice. Behold!

Attack
see p. B365 and Martial Arts, p. 98
An Attack is used to initiate and improve a grapple, or to
free yourself from one! Roll and apply CP after a successful
attack. The attack may be directed in one of three ways:
• Initiate a grapple on a person or object. Apply CP to the
targeted location.
• Improve your control for an existing grapple. Add CP
rolled to the targeted location.
• Break a grapple on a person (Break Free, p. 35) or object
(Grip CP, p. 12) by attacking the grip itself. Subtract rolled CP
from a location currently grappled by your foe.

Those are clearly two different Attacks. Go for it.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by McAllister

I believe TG lacks any "do the same thing twice" restriction, but you're not even talking about doing the same thing twice. Behold!

Those are clearly two different Attacks. Go for it.

That's what I was thinking (and it's how I've been running it) basically picturing it as you concentrating on getting the best grapple you can, at the expense of being unable to defend against the target attempts to break free later. It's just barring a very low Grappling ST (i.e where you on average likely to do 2 or less CP) I can't see any reason why you'd do a AoA(Strong) when you could do an AoA(double) instead. You have to do two attack rolls certainly, but the second will get no location pens (if relevant) and the target will suffer penalties to defend from the grapple already in place.

Am I missing something?

Cheers
TD

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Can I just check something in reference to the restrictions in MA on repeating the same Grappling move and how TG inter plays with that.

I can do an AoA(double) to:

First Attack = Grapple (say two handed to the body)

and then

Second attack = Improve my grapple without changing it i.e still using two hands on the body?

Also while MA128 says explicitly you can't attempt two or more break free attempts with any version of rapid strike or AoA(double) etc, since in TA a break free is now an attack can you now make multiple break free attacks (using the various normal options for getting more than one attack)?

This is totally legit, and one of the better reasons to do AoA(Double), especially in a sporting match.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

It's just barring a very low Grappling ST (i.e where you on average likely to do 2 or less CP) I can't see any reason why you'd do a AoA(Strong) when you could do an AoA(double) instead.

I hadn't really considered this. I think you're right - unless you have a low effective ST (10 or lower, typically), Double is a much better option than Strong. Of course, this doesn't mean that for a character with TST 15 Double is always better - if he's been grappled for 10 CP, his ST is down to 10 and Strong is a better contender. One other thing that can increase the ST at which Strong is the better option is Control Resistance - against a foe with CR 2 (say, from being semi-naked and sweaty), you need effective ST of 15+ for Double to win out (and even there, you might go with Strong to insure you don't lose CP from the grapple). Against a foe with CR 4 (as above, but oiled, as in a pankration match), you need effective ST of 19+ for Double to win out.