Low basic bare-handed damage against high-ST character

[Erling]

An untrained character with ST 7 makes 1d-4 damage with a punch. That means he has 33.3% chance to cause at least 1 HP injury to an unprotected target. With AoA (Strong) his odds become higher - 66.6%.

Let's assume a feeble clerk (ST 7) attacks a bare-chested heavyweight champion (ST and HT ~14, HP ~18). Clerk only attacks torso, and he only punches. Champ doesn't defend, he's simply tensed his muscles in order to offset damage. I think that realistically (that's the way I see it, but I admit I can be wrong) clerk can punch champ's torso dozens of times without doing any damage worth noting - champ's muscles are just too tough, while clerk's punches are too weak, and his fists are "soft".

Under the rules clerk has, as I mentioned above, 33.3% (66.6% with AoA) chance to cause at least 1 HP injury. Eventually he'll be able to beat champ to 0 HP in one minute or even faster.
And even ST 4 character can do the same, though he'll need a bit more time (and AoA becomes really helpful).

I realize that this is an edge case, but I really believe that strong human's torso must be much more durable against mere punches, especially those committed by a weakling. If clerk had a knife or brass knuckles, that would be another story, but he hasn't.

Shouldn't there be any threshold for a low-ST character to cause injury bare-handed? Maybe some sort of DR against crushing bare-handed attacks? Maybe there is a rule about that somewhere in GURPS rulebooks?

[Xplo]

Meat is meat. If ST 7 guy can hurt anyone, he can hurt HP 18 guy.

Note that 1 point of damage matters a lot less to HP 18 guy than it does to ordinary HP 10 people.

If you want to make HP 18 guy exceptionally tough, give him a point of DR with Tough Skin limitation; this is somewhat unrealistic, but not grossly so, and it'll make him nearly immune to ST 7 guy.

[Erling]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Meat is meat. If ST 7 guy can hurt anyone, he can hurt HP 18 guy.

I agree that ST 7 guy can cause damage. I just don't think he can beat up heavyweight champ in one minute.

Originally Posted by Xplo

Note that 1 point of damage matters a lot less to HP 18 guy than it does to ordinary HP 10 people.

1 HP would be fine, but clerk can cause at least 1 HP injury with 2/3 of attacks (statistically).

Originally Posted by Xplo

If you want to make HP 18 guy exceptionally tough, give him a point of DR with Tough Skin limitation; this is somewhat unrealistic, but not grossly so, and it'll make him nearly immune to ST 7 guy.

I thought about this solution, but DR is an Exotic advantage. Sure, I can always house rule it (if there ever will be a clerk beating bare-chested immobilized heavyweight champ in my campaign), but only if there's no solution by the RAW.

[Not]

Instead of the chest, he should target the kidneys, groin, and (if he can reach), rabbit-punches to the skull. You can really hurt an undefended person in 60 sec that way.

The problem lies with the tensing of the torso muscles. This is a kind of defense. Caught unawares, Charles Atlas could take a damaging blow to the gut. But prepared he has little worry. I'm not aware that GURPS can simulate this, however.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Erling

I thought about this solution, but DR is an Exotic advantage. Sure, I can always house rule it (if there ever will be a clerk beating bare-chested immobilized heavyweight champ in my campaign), but only if there's no solution by the RAW.

Originally Posted by Martial Arts page 43

Tough Skin: The GM may let really tough guys buy DR (Limited, Crushing, -40%; Tough Skin, -40%) [1/level] for their whole body. Attacks that don’t break the skin or carry a contact poison or chi-based touch attack simply hurt less.

Originally Posted by Martial Arts page 51

Special Exercises†
You pursue an exercise regimen that grants access to a capability that’s normally cinematic or off-limits for your race. This is a perk-level Unusual Background – the ability itself has its own cost. Each trait requires its own perk: Special Exercises (DR 1 with Tough Skin), Special Exercises (Striking ST +1), Special Exercises (Arm ST +1), Special Exercises (HP can exceed ST by 100%), and so on.

In a realistic game you might allow:

Special Exercises (DR 1 with Tough Skin and Limited, Crushing) 1 [1]
Prerequisite HP 14+, and HT 12+

Special Exercises (DR 1 with Tough Skin and Limited, Crushing) 2 [2]
Prerequisite HP 18+, and HT 14+

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Erling

I agree that ST 7 guy can cause damage. I just don't think he can beat up heavyweight champ in one minute.

It's not a sparring match; ST 7 guy is weak but he's punching to kill (or trying to). He can probably do a lot of damage in a full minute if nobody stops him.

Realistically, he'd probably hurt his hands before he delivered 60 serious punches. But that's below GURPS' resolution.

I thought about this solution, but DR is an Exotic advantage. Sure, I can always house rule it (if there ever will be a clerk beating bare-chested immobilized heavyweight champ in my campaign), but only if there's no solution by the RAW.

You sound like my GM. Getting him to agree to a new Talent or something is like pulling teeth, and I've given up on character concepts that require GM buy-in to make them work.

[Toptomcat]

Originally Posted by Erling

Champ doesn't defend, he's simply tensed his muscles in order to offset damage.

I'd be inclined to say that this qualifies as a sort of parry. There's definitely a trick to tensing the right muscles at the right time to lessen the impact of a blow, something that's at least partially skill-based and not just a function of being a strong guy.

[vierasmarius]

Really, you're just highlighting one of the intrinsic problems of an attrition-based damage system. The same problem is evident when firing a machinegun at a battleship, for example. Reality probably cares more about the single most damaging injury than an accumulation of tiny wounds. There are a variety of non-cumulative or semi-cumulative wounding houserules. I'm fond of lwcamp's wounding system.

[DouglasCole]

I wrote about this a bit in my blog post Shrug it Off.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Erling

I thought about this solution, but DR is an Exotic advantage. Sure, I can always house rule it (if there ever will be a clerk beating bare-chested immobilized heavyweight champ in my campaign), but only if there's no solution by the RAW.

Realistically, heavyweight boxers probably have DR (Limited: Crushing), as opposed to normal humans.

Long experience of taking full-power punches without disabling harm makes a difference.