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Old 05-27-2018, 04:42 AM   #1
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

Hi all,
TFT starts to break when people's attributes get high (attribute bloat), and so I've been thinking about simple ways to fix this. For example, reducing greatly the experience gained for making a job roll.

Another very simple fix would be to adjust the talents that give DX bonuses.

If Missile Weapons REDUCED the DX penalty for ranged fire by three, then archers would be more accurate at range, but they would still need a high DX for in close fighting.

Alternately, these talents could give a damage bonus instead. For example, if Thrown Weapons allowed you to ready and throw a weapon in a single action (already a great ability) AND do +1 damage with thrown weapons, then I think that the talent would be good enough for people to take. It wouldn't need the +2 DX, so the evil day when characters will be making just about every to hit roll will be delayed.

I welcome thoughts and suggestions.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:41 AM   #2
ecz
 
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Default Re: Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

as it was outlined in other threads there is a certain consensus about the fact that the "attribute bloat" becomes an actual problem for a very low % of games.

usually the wise GM is capable to manage things keeping attribute numbers at a reasonable level. If he fails it happens because one or more of the following applies:

- abuse of the job table;
- tons of worthless and hopeless cannon fodder sent blindly against the party;
- patological lack of challenging enemies (soft GMing).

only a combination of one or more of these situations can bring a PC at 50+ points.

In this case is better to fix the GM, not the game!

Actually a PC at 50+ points could even be the result of years of "real life" using the same hero session after session without an "accident" that kills him despite all the dangers encountered and the slow grow rate. Hard but possible. In this case I would just "retire" my PC happy and alive.

So, in conclusion, I would modify/fix something else in the TFT, not the talents giving DX bonuses.
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Last edited by ecz; 05-27-2018 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:53 AM   #3
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Default Re: Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

it's true - for some - the opposite: in TFT dead is too easy.

- because at ST zero per RAW you are gone
- because TFT lacks the "parry" action
- because armor is weak and lowers DX heavily.
- because the encounter tables given in the manual are deadly
- because creatures are lethal (try to fight one -one vs a lion or a bear)

How a PC can eventually reach 38-40 points?

even the worth of this statement (dead is too easy) depends on the playing style and thus, once again, on the GM
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:13 PM   #4
Rick_Smith
 
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Default Re: Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

Hi ecz, thanks for the quick reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
as it was outlined in other threads there is a certain consensus about the fact that the "attribute bloat" becomes an actual problem for a very low % of games.
I remember reading a thread on a forum (I think it was Role Playing Game Geek), where a D&D player dismissed TFT out of hand. He said something like, "It is fine for a little while. But the only way to improve is to keep raising the attributes, and pretty soon everyone makes all their rolls. Then it is boring."
I wanted to defend TFT, but really felt I couldn't. I was not a problem in my campaign, but as TFT as written it was.

I don't think there was any broad consensus that attribute bloat is not a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
usually the wise GM is capable to manage things keeping attribute numbers at a reasonable level. If he fails it happens because one or more of the following applies:

- abuse of the job table;
- tons of worthless and hopeless cannon fodder sent blindly against the party;
- patological lack of challenging enemies (soft GMing).

only a combination of one or more of these situations can bring a PC at 50+ points.

In this case is better to fix the GM, not the game!
OK, a lot of points to cover here.

ONE:
I used to be a killer GM. In that respect, I used to be 'not broken', and didn't need to be 'fixed'. But after a while, I grew bored with endless beginning characters. The constant 32 attribute figures all started to feel alike. After a while, my players grew bored with dying all the time. So I added rules to make dying a bit harder. (e.g. now you don't die at 0 ST. Realistically you have to be down to -4 ST before you are in real trouble, assuming your physicker is still up.) Additionally, I adjusted my GM'ing style so that player tended to get more warning before they were up against something really tough.

We play long campaigns, which last months. And attribute bloat was a real problem until I fixed it with my superscript rules. But new TFT does not have those, so I am concerned about its success.

Now, you may say, my GM'ing style is broken, and I should be fixed. But I am enjoying GM'ing more that characters can become more experienced and interesting. And my players enjoy not dying constantly. Is it fair to say that this style of GM'ing is broken?

I'm sure that there are some playing groups where the GM and players are happy with relentless death and replacing characters. But is that the best that TFT can aspire to? Should that style be all that TFT can play well as?


TWO:
Attribute bloat certainly is a problem at 50+ attributes but as has been pointed out before, it starts becoming a problem earlier. At 42 attributes you can have a ST 13, DX 15, IQ 14 character, which is bumping its head on always hitting and making most rolls. And 42 attributes is not a sky high attribute total.


THREE:
Is it REALLY easier to fix the GM? All of them? REALLY???

Is it easier to fix the new GM's who are trying to start up a group? Is it easier to fix all of the GM's who hope to keep their groups together and fear that constant death will alienate and drive off players? Is it easier to find and fix all the GM's who are good, but a bit to easy on the fights? Is it easier to fix the GM's (like me), who have grown bored with always seeing new low attribute characters, again and again, and don't WANT to be fixed?

How will you go out and 'fix' all these people anyway?

It seems far easier to me, to fix a handful of talents actually.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
Actually a PC at 50+ points could even be the result of years of "real life" using the same hero session after session without an "accident" that kills him despite all the dangers encountered and the slow grow rate. Hard but possible. In this case I would just "retire" my PC happy and alive.

So, in conclusion, I would modify/fix something else in the TFT, not the talents giving DX bonuses.
I agree with you actually. There are things that I would fix first. (I started a thread with my list of my top 6 changes, and this suggestion on talents was not on it.) However, Steve has said that he is not going to make many changes. (Tho if that was for Basic Melee and Wizard or the full TFT I'm not quite sure.) But if he is planning to keep ITL pretty much the same, there are a few things he could do which would slow attribute bloat which would not require a tonne of work. And these tweaks to talents would be one such easy change.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:03 PM   #5
ecz
 
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Default Re: Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi ecz, thanks for the quick reply.



I remember reading a thread on a forum (I think it was Role Playing Game Geek), where a D&D player dismissed TFT out of hand. He said something like, "It is fine for a little while. But the only way to improve is to keep raising the attributes, and pretty soon everyone makes all their rolls. Then it is boring."
I wanted to defend TFT, but really felt I couldn't. I was not a problem in my campaign, but as TFT as written it was.

I don't think there was any broad consensus that attribute bloat is not a problem.



OK, a lot of points to cover here.

ONE:
I used to be a killer GM. In that respect, I used to be 'not broken', and didn't need to be 'fixed'. But after a while, I grew bored with endless beginning characters. The constant 32 attribute figures all started to feel alike. After a while, my players grew bored with dying all the time. So I added rules to make dying a bit harder. (e.g. now you don't die at 0 ST. Realistically you have to be down to -4 ST before you are in real trouble, assuming your physicker is still up.) Additionally, I adjusted my GM'ing style so that player tended to get more warning before they were up against something really tough.

We play long campaigns, which last months. And attribute bloat was a real problem until I fixed it with my superscript rules. But new TFT does not have those, so I am concerned about its success.

Now, you may say, my GM'ing style is broken, and I should be fixed. But I am enjoying GM'ing more that characters can become more experienced and interesting. And my players enjoy not dying constantly. Is it fair to say that this style of GM'ing is broken?

I'm sure that there are some playing groups where the GM and players are happy with relentless death and replacing characters. But is that the best that TFT can aspire to? Should that style be all that TFT can play well as?


TWO:
Attribute bloat certainly is a problem at 50+ attributes but as has been pointed out before, it starts becoming a problem earlier. At 42 attributes you can have a ST 13, DX 15, IQ 14 character, which is bumping its head on always hitting and making most rolls. And 42 attributes is not a sky high attribute total.


THREE:
Is it REALLY easier to fix the GM? All of them? REALLY???

Is it easier to fix the new GM's who are trying to start up a group? Is it easier to fix all of the GM's who hope to keep their groups together and fear that constant death will alienate and drive off players? Is it easier to find and fix all the GM's who are good, but a bit to easy on the fights? Is it easier to fix the GM's (like me), who have grown bored with always seeing new low attribute characters, again and again, and don't WANT to be fixed?

How will you go out and 'fix' all these people anyway?

It seems far easier to me, to fix a handful of talents actually.




I agree with you actually. There are things that I would fix first. (I started a thread with my list of my top 6 changes, and this suggestion on talents was not on it.) However, Steve has said that he is not going to make many changes. (Tho if that was for Basic Melee and Wizard or the full TFT I'm not quite sure.) But if he is planning to keep ITL pretty much the same, there are a few things he could do which would slow attribute bloat which would not require a tonne of work. And these tweaks to talents would be one such easy change.

Warm regards, Rick.
Rick no offense intended, the sense of my thread is that even the best possible RPG system will not work properly if the GM is not at the same level of the game while even a broken design can still be a blast with the right GM. All generally speaking, of course.

About the fact you says that problems begin with PCs at 42+points I politely disagree. We are talking of "heroes" that are top player characters. The elite of the elite of their races. It's fine they have high attributes, learn many talents quickly and - possibly -have access to magic items further boosting their power.

For the rest I'm not sure to have understood if the problem is your PCs die too easily, or they become too strong at 50+ points too quickly if you adjust your GMing style from "average" to "safe".
In any case I think that experience and close interation with your players should allow to tune the right "difficulty level" of the adventures according the group's preferences.

No rule (or rule change) can really make this work for you.
As usual and always IMO
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:04 AM   #6
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
If Missile Weapons REDUCED the DX penalty for ranged fire by three, then archers would be more accurate at range, but they would still need a high DX for in close fighting.
Yes, I like this.

Another idea I've mentioned before which also takes out the "ninja halflings" issue is to just let halflings get Thrown Weapons or Missile Weapons for 1 IQ point, but not give them all an automatic bonus that stacks with those talents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Alternately, these talents could give a damage bonus instead. For example, if Thrown Weapons allowed you to ready and throw a weapon in a single action (already a great ability) AND do +1 damage with thrown weapons, then I think that the talent would be good enough for people to take. It wouldn't need the +2 DX, so the evil day when characters will be making just about every to hit roll will be delayed.
Yes, though I think I'd prefer a Fencing-like increased chance of double or triple, and for Thrown Weapons especially, I like the range reduction rather than DX+, since Thrown Weapons have a really steep range adjustment.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:19 AM   #7
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
as it was outlined in other threads there is a certain consensus about the fact that the "attribute bloat" becomes an actual problem for a very low % of games.
No, it just gets ridiculous at the very high-end. The problem starts creeping in before that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
usually the wise GM is capable to manage things keeping attribute numbers at a reasonable level. If he fails it happens because one or more of the following applies:

- abuse of the job table;
- tons of worthless and hopeless cannon fodder sent blindly against the party;
- patological lack of challenging enemies (soft GMing).

only a combination of one or more of these situations can bring a PC at 50+ points.

In this case is better to fix the GM, not the game!
For 50+ point PCs, maybe sort of, but there are still issues before then, and not just for problematic GMs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
Actually a PC at 50+ points could even be the result of years of "real life" using the same hero session after session without an "accident" that kills him despite all the dangers encountered and the slow grow rate. Hard but possible. In this case I would just "retire" my PC happy and alive.
We had characters survive years of play, and even with our modified EP rewards they got to 42-46 points, which didn't seem all that bad... but was about the point where it started to feel wrongish to add more and more to their attributes. And also where the game started to feel broken and unsatisfying, as most PCs, their NPC comrades, and any foes posing any risk at all were very rarely missing any attack. Fine equipment and magic items also combined with the highish stats to make many/most combats feel off.

If you're a GM who runs a self-consistent world, there should be some characters in the mid-forties even when the PCs are 32 points.
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Old 05-28-2018, 02:22 AM   #8
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
it's true - for some - the opposite: in TFT dead is too easy.

- because at ST zero per RAW you are gone
- because TFT lacks the "parry" action
- because armor is weak and lowers DX heavily.
- because the encounter tables given in the manual are deadly
- because creatures are lethal (try to fight one -one vs a lion or a bear)

How a PC can eventually reach 38-40 points?

even the worth of this statement (dead is too easy) depends on the playing style and thus, once again, on the GM
By taking the situations seriously and learning what to do to stay alive. Bring enough people, and physickers. Rest up the wounded in safe places. Be careful and observant, scout, be willing to run away, and use good tactics when you fight.
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Old 05-28-2018, 04:55 PM   #9
Kirk
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

Clearly, the best way to avoid character death is not to create one.

Barring that, a more normal job in a small village somewhere, making wagon wheels and such, dying in your 50s due to an infection from a cracked tooth, is another way to go.

When we create characters who go on *adventures*, we are creating unusual folks who are willing to take more risks for possibly more reward, whatever they define that as.

So Players shouldn't necessarily expect many of their characters to survive into older age, because they probably are *adventurers*, not blacksmiths or carters, etc.

That said, we play that you are dead at -ST, and that a 3d saving roll vs. basic ST + current non-positive strength on 3 dice is required to not die of your injuries once a character reaches 0 adjusted ST.
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Old 05-30-2018, 01:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: Talents that give you DX bonuses --> change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecz View Post
as it was outlined in other threads there is a certain consensus about the fact that the "attribute bloat" becomes an actual problem for a very low % of games.
True, assuming you ignore anyone who stated that it WAS a potential problem...
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