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Old 05-24-2018, 10:16 PM   #11
evileeyore
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

Quote:
Originally Posted by lachimba View Post
Repeat after me:

DECEPTIVE ATTACK

Problem solved
You might want to reread line three of the OP. It specifically mentions deceptive attacks being used.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Base Dodge is 3+Speed. +1 For Combat Reflexes. +3 for a Retreat.

3 + 9 + 1 + 3 = 16
If both participants are constantly retreating you don't have much of a fight... they would be in separate rooms before long.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:50 PM   #13
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

Also Enhanced Dodge, Acrobatic Dodges, etc.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

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Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
If both participants are constantly retreating you don't have much of a fight... they would be in separate rooms before long.
And if both participants are ABLE to retreat whenever they want, you might have a boring battlefield, or a poor narrative.

If two really skilled guys are sparring, you might have them in a fighting ring, where they can't simply retreat whenever they like, or heck, just a gym, where the walls are going to eventually restrict incessant retreats.

In an actual fight, there might be uneven terrain, objectives to defend, or some sort of time imperative.

Even if they are 'just practicing' a combat, having the players need to pay attention to terrain and the like is still good practice.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

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Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
If both participants are constantly retreating you don't have much of a fight... they would be in separate rooms before long.
You can take a Step forward and still Retreat. In a featureless-plain scenario, there's nothing to stop a pair of fighters who start next to each other to basically shuffle back and forth over the same three hexes, basically forever.

Of course, that "featureless plain" bit is the trouble. Terrain should definitely play a role. While it's not actually in the rules as written, I'm of the opinion that, in addition to penalizing defenses and attacks, moving in bad footing, at least, should require DX or Acrobatics rolls to avoid falling. I'd definitely apply that to any defense that involved a Retreat, but I'd probably also call for a roll (though perhaps with a bonus) for any Dodge, since I assume those always involve at least a certain amount of footwork.
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:13 PM   #16
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
We ran some one-on-one fights last night to help work out the kinks as some of the players are rusty and used to 6-second combat turns rather than 1-second turns. One of the fights ended up dragging on for some time as both the PC and the NPC opponent had high active defense scores (16+). With GURPS defenses being basically all-or-nothing, barring critical attacks, it devolved into fishing for crits for a good half hour, even with interesting descriptions and deceptive attacks. I think both characters had Dodge scores of 16, and primary Judo and Karate Parries in the 16-18 range.

While fishing for crits makes a fun visual to watch, it gets fairly dull in play. Is there a way to handle this so that we can resolve fights between two evenly-matched high-defense characters faster?
To summarize the hints given above, which are good, it all depends on why are their defenses so high.

If their skills were very high (judo or karate at 20 or more), use deceptive attack, as you did, but use it more widely: -10 or more. Only one attack in two will be successful, and it will still be parried or dodged one time in two, which means one good hit in four. It's low, but still better than waiting for critical successes or failure.

If their dodges were very high (high speed + combat reflexes + retreat) use Feint instead. Here again, it will be a bit long because you will have to wait that one succeeds with a high margin of victory, but that's still better than just waiting for criticals.

And I would add this: in both cases, use tactics.

In such a case, one of the adversaries will eventually use all-out attack. The NPC, for instance. It will be risky for him but, with the deceptive option, it will give a further -2 to his foe's defense.

Also use dirty tricks. In kobudo, we have a special technique named sunakake: it's a throw of sand to the eyes with the bo (long staff) and it is learned almost from the beginning. So, if it is teached, it is because it can be useful.

Use techniques which can reduce the defense (counter attack, elbow drop...).

Turn around the adversary to go in his back.

Make him step back somewhere where he won't be able to retreat anymore.

And so on.

Last edited by Gollum; 05-24-2018 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

I don't know if you saw this thread, but the topic came up last month also:
High defenses in 4th edition

Kromm even weighed in.

I'm sure there's still room for discussion, so have at it.
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Old 05-25-2018, 03:38 AM   #18
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

For reference, here is the NPC character sheet I was using.

The PC has DX 16, HT 15, Acrobatics 16, Enhanced Dodge 3, and Combat Reflexes, for a Dodge 14, with No Encumbrance. Also Judo and Karate at 18 with Enhanced Parry 3.

Both were making a lot of Acrobatic Dodges, though I tried to mix things up with parries when necessary, along with a Cloak Block against the PC shooting at the NPC's foot (we joke about the player's character having a foot fetish as she keeps shooting peoples' feet; good tactic, except when cloak + boot DR soaks damage entirely).

I remembered Deceptive Attack was a thing late in the fight, which helped later. Also, neither one of us used Feints - except during a lull in the fighting which was more of a "is this a flash-bang or a frag grenade I'm holding?" on the PC's part.


We were doing this in a dock-side freight yard, so yes, terrain was a thing we took into account. No featureless white plains for us.


EDIT: oops, forgot to turn on link sharing access on the NPC's sheet. Fixed
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Last edited by Phantasm; 05-25-2018 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:33 AM   #19
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
The PC has DX 16, HT 15, Acrobatics 16, Enhanced Dodge 3, and Combat Reflexes, for a Dodge 14, with No Encumbrance. Also Judo and Karate at 18 with Enhanced Parry 3.
Enhanced Defences is something you have to be very careful with. Note that having levels of this is an optional rule - the standard is that you have it (for +1 to a defence) or you don't.
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Old 05-25-2018, 05:57 AM   #20
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Default Re: Combat question for symmetrical high-defense fights

Sounds like the characters are built to be defense monsters. (DX 16, six levels of Enhanced Defense, Combat Reflexes, and Acrobatics just for the Dodge bonus.)

That's 80+ points devoted to defense. For attack, they have Karate-18, which at DX 16 means 12 points devoted to attacking. 80 points beats 12... which seems like an expected result.

Try moving some of those points out of stacked defenses and into offense. (Dump 80 points into Karate, and you'd have it at 35, which means ten levels of Deceptive Attack as a routine measure reducing those defenses of 18 to 8, without even really reducing your chance to hit. Silly, yes, but that gives a measure of how extreme those defenses are. If you're not running a game that's meant to have that sort of cinematic wuxia ability, you might want to scale things down a bit.)

Last edited by Anaraxes; 05-25-2018 at 06:06 AM.
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