Stagnation in Road Combat Designs .

[Blue Ghost]

Quick anecdote, there's a few "mountain" expressways that connect Coastal Highway 1 with 280 and Skyline, two arteries that connect San Francisco with the peninsula. And while fighting on one of those, a very winding expressway, the grade of the road was essentially a flat plane. So where there were distance modifiers (I can't recall using speed DMs), we didn't have any AOA mods. And again, it didn't effect (affect?) designs.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost

Eh, funny anecdote, we were playing a scenario out of an ADQ, and some guy forgot he was on an incomplete overpass that was something like five stories high. So, when he drover over and asked what that dotted line was for … oops. He and his vehicle plummeted to the pavement below. No modifiers :)

I scored five kills with four RGMs that way -- convoy adventure, final battle on a road along a cliff face. I punched out the bad guys' main vehicle with the RGMs; the four behind him swerved violently to avoid, forgetting there was a cliff on one side, and a cliff face on the other....

"All those feathers, and he still can't fly."

[hal]

Originally Posted by kjamma4

Hence Car Wars and not Cargo Wars. ;)

To perhaps make an explanation and why I pointed out the various things that can be done to perhaps make road combat duels a bit more interesting is because everyone buys the "gun fighter" model of cars for use in the campaign. Role playing is about placing yourself in the shoes of your character and asking "what would I do if this were reality"?

In my opinion, most of the road duels should NOT be between what I call "Gunfighter" vehicles. These vehicles are optimized for one thing and one thing only - Fighting.

Problem is - most vehicles used in an arena WILL be gunfighter vehicles. That's just a given. But will that necessarily be true in a non-arena environment? I largely suspect the answer is no.

If the cars have to serve a dual purpose, then calling it "Cargo wars" is a misnomer. If you had to have vehicles that would travel from East Coast to West Coast, then the vehicles are going to need to be able to carry supplies and all that fun stuff.

If there is "Stagnation" in the game, then maybe what needs to be done is mix things up a bit and start creating scenarios where an optimized gunfighter is a bad idea.

True Story: My girlfriend/wife started Gaming in 1986 (we were married in 1993) and the VERY first role playing game she engaged with was the Car Wars Universe. Long story short, because she was new, she kept deferring to the "old hand" gamer who basically took advantage of the newbie by taking every spare dollar and every piece of expensive equipment for his own vehicle. She got stuck with the less expensive and less equipped vehicle. Guess whose car survived the scenario (which was a run from Florida to the West Coast). Moral of the story is that if you're convinced that your vehicle isn't invincible, you end up fighting more creatively to avoid "gun fights".

In the end, the issue isn't necessarily that the game stagnates per se, it just needs new blood.

As a suggestion? Why not open a new thread, call it "Scenario Design Contest" and then set the parameters of what you do NOT want in a road scenario. Then have people build scenarios to best meet the challenge.

[Blue Ghost]

Originally Posted by hal

*snip*

In the end, the issue isn't necessarily that the game stagnates per se, it just needs new blood.

As a suggestion? Why not open a new thread, call it "Scenario Design Contest" and then set the parameters of what you do NOT want in a road scenario. Then have people build scenarios to best meet the challenge.

Well, I think this is what ADQ was for, and I guess I would lobby for a new version.

Not to get too off topic, but I guess as a naïve middle and high schooler, I never really understood just how niche games like Car Wars et al were at the time. Meaning that I guess I was a little confused as to why ADQ was ADQ and not … I don't know "Autoduel Monthly" or "This Week in Car Wars" kind of thing. Meaning that ADQ, the periodical that it was, helped keep things robust, but I think ultimately the overload of devices, gadgets and new weapons, may have overwhelmed a lot of players. Ergo perhaps there was a drop in interest in Car Wars because of that, hence the lack of variety in car design.

As to your anecdote, well personally I really look down on that kind of thing. You're there to spend time with friends and engage in a story or imaginary competition with your friends. Metagaming a fellow PC like that is really bad form. But, whatever.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost

As to your anecdote, well personally I really look down on that kind of thing. You're there to spend time with friends and engage in a story or imaginary competition with your friends. Metagaming a fellow PC like that is really bad form. But, whatever.

Every group sooner or later finds its quota of "characters" who, in real life, tend to be less than stellar individuals (or socially well adapted). On the flip side, what we do when we're young, often is filled with mistakes we wince at later in life. It is only when certain lessons aren't learned by the time you hit your 50's and 60's that one has to wince and accept that which cannot be changed, will not change.

Put another way? My wife, with the experiences she's had growing up, and with gaming for nigh unto 32 years, would never make that mistake with anyone else today. That we still gamed together after all these years is something I can only look back upon and wonder how I lucked out there.

:)

[swordtart]

A wife that like board games is a joy long after the ...ahem... other attractions wear off ;)

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by hal

If the cars have to serve a dual purpose, then calling it "Cargo wars" is a misnomer. If you had to have vehicles that would travel from East Coast to West Coast, then the vehicles are going to need to be able to carry supplies and all that fun stuff.

Back'n'th'day, NOVA ran quite a few "convoy" adventures. We did out level-best to design, or acquire, vehicles which were "appropriate" for a convoy -- there'd be the "point" vehicle (ramcar w/ heavy F battery), the "tail-end Charlie" (dropped-weapon special), the "floaters" (for reinforcing whichever direction the attack was coming from), and in some cases even having Air Power [cough] :) ].

(The convoy which ended with me scoring five kills with four missiles started with the players getting either $15K for a custom design, or $25K for something from "an Official SJG Publication". I showed up with a _Micromedic_, and all three passengers with SMGs. The GM about had a heart attack when I captured a semi-tractor on-the-move -- shot off the B armor, then boarded, and brought it down to a speed where even an untrained PC could drive it without crashing.... :) )

So, if there's stagnation, I suspect the fault lies in the wetware, if you follow me.

[Blue Ghost]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

*snippage*

So, if there's stagnation, I suspect the fault lies in the wetware, if you follow me.

One of my former favorite games, Star Fleet Battles, was notorious for being stagnant, but largely due to licensing issues of what the Star Trek property owners would allow, and what they wouldn't. The cure for that was new regions of space and the tremendous amount of web based fan material the simply exploded and expanded the game's realm of creation.

Unlike starships Car Wars has a restriction in that there isn't a whole lot of new tech coming down the pipe; i.e. as your convoy travels across the former US you may encounter some remote bike gang or a militant native American tribe armed to the teeth, but neither are going to have exotic unknown tractor-repulsor beam tech mounted up front or in a turret nor some strange "power absorber" (fire proof) armor. So, there is a kind of conventionality to CW that might put a restriction or two on designs, but unless you're limited to subcompacts and LMGs, I don't see an issue.

When I used to design a lot of cars I just put down what I wanted my car to do based on some loose notion of a strategy. I didn't think of the arena, track or "asphalt plane" that I would be on, because presumably this car would have to fight in a variety of surroundings.

I think if you're players are tailoring your cars to the arena, then maybe next time you meet for a game pick a different arena, or pick a track and require them to use the same car they used last time. I can almost guarantee you that you'll get more rounded designs.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by GreenWizard

NOVA was very famous (in the austere circles of high society, even in my homeland of Australia), back in the old days, and it sounds like you played some fun games.

"Famous" is one way of phrasing it....

They ran to the "comic book" style of adventures: Villain comes up with Plan; Heroes stop Plan; Villain gets away, and comes up with new Plan; repeat ad nauseam. Then *I* showed up -- and the only comics I'd read were the old EC imprints: _Tales from the Crypt_; _Haunt of Fear_; Vault of Horror_; _Shock SuspenStories_; etc. Suddenly adventures turned into: "OK, you beat me -- you can stop now... I said you can stop now... I SAID YOU CAN STOP NOW... NO... NO... *YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH*!" (They're still looking for some of the characters I "dealt with".) Needless to say, this wasn't popular with the majority; and is one of the reasons I'm no longer with that group.

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost

I think if you're players are tailoring your cars to the arena, then maybe next time you meet for a game pick a different arena, or pick a track and require them to use the same car they used last time. I can almost guarantee you that you'll get more rounded designs.

One idea I never quite managed to get adopted: A series of arenas, all different (some with lots of open space, others with really short LoS; some multi-level, some "flat"; etc.), but the players have to use the same design for all of them. Thinking of thinning out that Top armor -- best keep those two-level arenas in mind. Big fan of rockets -- good luck in the open-floor arenas. That sort of thing. (Given how most of NOVA was infamous for bringing the same design to every event anyway, it's no surprise it didn't go over.)

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by hal

In my opinion, most of the road duels should NOT be between what I call "Gunfighter" vehicles. These vehicles are optimized for one thing and one thing only - Fighting.

It depends on how you consider the fights to evolve and progress. Consider the parallel culture of the "Wild West".

Everyone is armed according to the classic movies. Of course in reality, the vast majority of ordinary members of the public did not carry arms at all in the cities (and to be fair most of the background people in films don't have them). If you aren't well enough armed to finish a fight, you probably won't start one, you avoid the places where that is a risk, if a gunfight starts you get out as quickly as possible (clear the sidewalks, hide behind a card table etc.). Ditto CW.

The more adventurous types that travel out into the country (inter city travellers) might carry a personal defence weapon, but they are more likely to travel on the train or a stagecoach that has a guard. A single self defence weapon in isolation would be useless in defending against a hoard of bandits , but many such weapons might encourage the bandits to take on a softer target. Ditto CW, we travel in convoys. Even a dozen SMGs in the hands of passengers would discourage casual attack. Bandits attack unarmed people for preference as no risk is better than even a small risk. If the bandits are prepared to attack a well armed group then they WILL be using gunships.

CW fiction talks of fender benders turning into armed fights (which is probably equivalent to rival cowboy bands firing off at one another). In all likelihood it won't be to the death as the cost of victory is too high (repairs and reloads). It also isn't sustainable if no-one can go to the shops to buy a pint of milk without getting shot up.

If a "daily drive" with single MG in a turret has an encounter with a gunfighter, it won't duke it out, it will run away. Speed and manoeuvrability rather than firepower will get you home safe. If you design to that philosophy why bother with the gun at all? Look weak and they might not even attack you as there is no pretence of a fair fight.

Plausible attacks will be:

The unscrupulously powerful against the weak (which won't be a fun scenario for the weak and no challenge for the powerful). Of course the powerful might just think that their target is weak and you could pull a "Magnificent 7" on them (Q-Ship or reinforcements), but if the assumption is for a fair game then they'll smell a rat immediately.

The desperate weak against the equally weak as neither has the strength to threaten anything better and if one is even marginally better at this low level it is effectively the situation above. This is basically amateur night on the open highway (and can be a hoot).

The really desperately weak against anything as by now they are so desperate that even the sweet embrace of death is better than their shadow existence. This can be fun, but it's hard to make a campaign of it unless the ravening hordes are NPCs.

Equal rivals taking their corporate warfare to the open highway for deniability. These will be dedicated gunships vs either dedicated gunships or a mix of gunships and heavy cargo haulers (which will also be heavily armed). Possibly mercenaries that might honour surrenders.

In short I think cars in highway combats WILL be optimised for combat as that's why they are there. They might be optimised for a different style of combat (e.g. stern chases) but they won't be badly armed and armoured cargo haulers.