Using a class ability and discarding the class

[Griffen25]

Example/Question: Can a cleric discard a card and Resurrect an undead creature, start fighting it, discard a following 3 cards to Turn it (gaining +9)
and then discard the cleric card whilst still in combat with the undead monster?

According to the flowchart you can discard/play classes in combat, but does this effect the class abilities that you've already used?

[lightofdarkness]

The way I interpret it, based on the FAQ and some of the other posts, combat is not a stackable exercise, it's happening all at once. But at the same time, once an act is performed (the 3 card discard) the action has taken place. For me, sounds like no matter what, he's definitely in combat. He used the ability to bring the monster, yes, but once in combat, he's in combat, that part shouldn't be a question. The plus 9 should hold, but the player will not be a cleric after the combat. If he's getting penalized by the monster for being a cleric, what I've read says the penalty would go away if he's no longer a cleric, even mid-combat. So, all of the benefits none of the minus?

[thedag]

Originally Posted by lightofdarkness

The way I interpret it, based on the FAQ and some of the other posts, combat is not a stackable exercise, it's happening all at once. But at the same time, once an act is performed (the 3 card discard) the action has taken place. For me, sounds like no matter what, he's definitely in combat. He used the ability to bring the monster, yes, but once in combat, he's in combat, that part shouldn't be a question. The plus 9 should hold, but the player will not be a cleric after the combat. If he's getting penalized by the monster for being a cleric, what I've read says the penalty would go away if he's no longer a cleric, even mid-combat. So, all of the benefits none of the minus?

This is what I've seen given as an official answer in other posts. If I remember I will come back later and try to find a link.

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by Griffen25

Example/Question: Can a cleric discard a card and Resurrect an undead creature, start fighting it, discard a following 3 cards to Turn it (gaining +9)
and then discard the cleric card whilst still in combat with the undead monster?

According to the flowchart you can discard/play classes in combat, but does this effect the class abilities that you've already used?

This is explicitly discussed in the FAQ:

Originally Posted by The Faq

Q. If somebody changes your race or class during combat (such as with a curse), does that change your combat bonuses?
A. Yes. If you quit being an Elf, you can no longer get a bonus from Elf-only items, and so on. You can never get the benefit of two races or two classes in one combat unless you have a special card that allows it. Powers driven by discards are an exception. If a Warrior had already discarded a card to get a +1 combat bonus, and then stopped being a Warrior, he would keep the bonus, but wouldn't be able to discard any more cards for the Warrior bonus. Yes, this rule can be used to the player's advantage. Hee hee.

Since the game is not stack-based and does give rules on how long one can wait to cancel a series of events, consider the logic of canceling or undoing an ability that was payed for by a discard if the game were stack-based and missing the all important cancellation window: That Cleric would have expended 4 cards and then all of a sudden, the act of discarding the Cleric would return the Monster to the discard pile and return all 4 cards the player discarded to initiate the combat and have an effect on it; any Item a Thief stole would have to be returned, even the Items he lost to Bad Stuff, or Curses, or sold for Levels, and those Levels would have to be taken away. . . Do you see where I'm going with this? The game is not meant to be that complicated and require such huge amounts of bookkeeping. Even with the new 6-page rule sheet, the game is not that rules intensive to cover the length of time an action can be canceled or reverted because stack-based play is not part of the design. Most actions are once-and-done, and very few cards exist that undo or cancel an action.

So, to recap: Unless you have a very specific card that can revert an action just after it happened, you can not cancel or prevent the effect of that action from happening; the loss of a Race, or Class, or Power, or Loyalty, or Accent card will not retroactively remove, cancel or prevent an ability use of that Race/Class/etc. that has a "one time" effect (like theft, or a Wizard's charm spell, or the French Accent's Charm ze rival), or was powered by a discard (this also covers theft and the charm spell, but also the Warrior's berserking and the Cleric's Turn undead). What one definitely loses when losing a Class/Race/etc. is the ability to derive a bonus from Items he was using that were specifically attuned to that aspect which was lost, and any bonuses or penalties granted by the Monsters he was fighting that were related to the aspect that was lost.

[Griffen25]

Thank you & sorry Erik,

I tried to explain this argument to my friend, however he was too stubborn to admit defeat, So I thought I would show him an official posting on the forum.

If the game is not stack based does that mean you could become a thief attempt to steal another players small item and because you have to discard a card, you opt to discard your thief card?

[RL]

Originally Posted by Griffen25

If the game is not stack based does that mean you could become a thief attempt to steal another players small item and because you have to discard a card, you opt to discard your thief card?

In general, you cannot discard your class card to power an ability for that class.

EDIT: This is actually in the FAQ, although it's not under the section on classes and races:

Q. The rules say that cards in play must be traded or discarded. When can I discard them?

A. ... Race and Class cards can be discarded at any time, including to power a special ability, but not an ability for the discarded race or class (unless the ability requires discarding that particular race or class). ...

[MunchkinMan]

The reason for this is that you lose the benefits, penalties and powers of a Race or Class when you discard it, so if you discard the Thief, you no longer have the power to steal, since you discarded the card that gave you the ability you were trying to use.

[capnq]

Is this one of the situations in which Munchkin Quest differs from Munchkin? (Because that first link's thread came to the opposite conclusion.)

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by capnq

Is this one of the situations in which Munchkin Quest differs from Munchkin? (Because that first link's thread came to the opposite conclusion.)

Unless I missed something like that in the new rules, that will have to be a difference. The MQ rules specifically state that rule, while Munchkin does not.

[floats09]

This makes sense; however, there are situations where it is still a little confusing.

For example, I am a Ranger and am fighting a monster. I declare that I'm going to tame the monster, and thus end my combat... Before I've decided what 5 cards I am going to discard, another person plays a wandering monster on me.

Is this legal or because I already said I was going to tame the monster is the combat over???