First thoughts on D&D 4th edition

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Hannes665

I just build a Eldrich Wizard. I like most of what I see but one thing struck me odd about Magic, you learn them as "Powers" and you only get those few spells that Power allows you to learn.

Correction: those are the only combat spells you can learn. 4e rituals are spells, they just aren't combat spells.

Originally Posted by Hannes665

From level 13th and every other level after that you get to replace 1 "Encounter" spells. So you "forget" the lesser "Encounter" spells as you gain levels. Why can´t the "All powerful" 21st level Wizard still not know couple of "lesser" spells.

He can -- you're not required to replace the encounter power with a higher level power (it's generally a suboptimal choice to not replace the power, but it's not mandatory). He can also just smack the low level characters around with his at-wills.

[Hannes665]

Correction: those are the only combat spells you can learn. 4e rituals are spells, they just aren't combat spells.

Stand Corrected...of course there are the rituals.

He can -- you're not required to replace the encounter power with a higher level power (it's generally a suboptimal choice to not replace the power, but it's not mandatory). He can also just smack the low level characters around with his at-wills.

His At-Wills... can he "upgrade" them later on?

But all this Screams at me! There will be some Power/Spell books comming soon.

But I must admit that I like most of what I see, I even would like to play a game or two to try it. Something that 3.0 and 3.x never did. To complex, to many books, options and so on... fitted well for CRPG.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Hannes665

His At-Wills... can he "upgrade" them later on?

Well, his at-wills are upgraded by a magic implement, and by level-based stat bumps, and by level-based attack bonuses. Assuming Int at level 1 is 18, and an implement of Level/5 (which is standard):
Magic Missile, Level 1: +4 vs Reflex, 2d4+4
Magic Missile, Level 15: +16 vs Reflex, 2d4+9.

There may be some additional bonuses, such as feats, that I'm missing.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Well, his at-wills are upgraded by a magic implement, and by level-based stat bumps, and by level-based attack bonuses. Assuming Int at level 1 is 18, and an implement of Level/5 (which is standard):
Magic Missile, Level 1: +4 vs Reflex, 2d4+4
Magic Missile, Level 15: +16 vs Reflex, 2d4+9.

There may be some additional bonuses, such as feats, that I'm missing.

I think wizards are supposed to switch out such spells for better, higher-level ones when they are able. They don't have to, but there's not really much point to keeping the old ones.

And it helps keeping the massive spell lists of spellcasters down...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

I think wizards are supposed to switch out such spells for better, higher-level ones when they are able. They don't have to, but there's not really much point to keeping the old ones.

That's pretty much true -- after level 7, you won't get any more non-class encounter attacks, and after level 9 no more non-class daily attacks -- but the specific question was about at-will powers, and those don't get replaced, though they do get upgraded at Epic.

To be honest, I wouldn't really object to higher level wizards leaving their low level encounters and dailies in their spell books. However, since there's pretty much never a good reason to prepare those spells instead of a higher level spell, the major effect would be to clutter up the character sheet.

[sir_pudding]

So any thoughts on my first concern? The various "hurt them/help you" powers? Do these seem contrived and difficult to visualize to anyone else?

[Collective_Restraint]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Do these seem contrived and difficult to visualize to anyone else?

If you want to talk about difficult to visualize, just talk about Healing Surges. From what I've seen, there is no explanation whatsoever on them except that it heals 25% of your hit points. I'm telling you, this edition of D&D is a videogame on paper. Nothing else. And with wizards able to cast Magic Missiles every round at will, I can easily see wizards cutting their front lawns with missiles. Wizards blasting every dungeon door slowly with Magic Missiles and the rest. If you want to make magic boring and not so mysterious anymore, make it as easily available as this.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Collective_Restraint

If you want to talk about difficult to visualize, just talk about Healing Surges. From what I've seen, there is no explanation whatsoever on them except that it heals 25% of your hit points.

D&D hit points have always been hard to visualize. What are they? Injury? Grit? "Dodginess"? How does healing magic work to restore them? I'm not sure healing surges are anymore problematical. In fact, to me anyway, they actually make some kind of sense based on the underlying logic of hit points. Since "healing" in D&D has very little to do with actual healing of injury and more to do with catching one's breathe and restoring morale, having a limited number of "second winds" per day actually kind of makes sense.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Collective_Restraint

If you want to talk about difficult to visualize, just talk about Healing Surges. From what I've seen, there is no explanation whatsoever on them except that it heals 25% of your hit points.

"It was only a flesh wound!"

How often does it happen in movies that a hero is grievously injured and by all rights should be out of action for the next few months - and yet struggles on because he's just that tenacious?

I'd say healing surges are exactly like that - they are a second wind for characters who are able to soldier on because they are heroic tough guys.

[sir_pudding]

So Jurgen, what do you think about the "hurt/heal" powers? Am I the only one that's bothered by these?