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Old 02-05-2010, 03:43 PM   #11
sieurin
 
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

I was tripping on the math. >_< Thanks!
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:22 PM   #12
malloyd
 
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
ST 1 [-90]
ST +1 (Accessibility, Daytime only, -20%) [8]

Total -82 points.
If you insist on doing it with the limitation, then using the usually equivalent -60% extra for a disadvantage not surprisingly gives you the same result.

ST 2 [-80]
ST -1 (Accessible, Night only -20%, Limited Disadvantage -60%) [-2]

Total -82 points

The cases where it makes a difference tend to be where GURPS' weird limitation system breaks with normal math - adding together percentages, pushing against the -80% cap etc. I might be inclined to try it both ways and use the one that gave you the fewest points. Enhancements or limitations aren't really meant to work with disadvantages.

The other place it makes a difference is when there is a disadvantage cap - PK's scheme accumulates 90 points (or 0 if base attributes don't count) toward it, vs 82 (or 2) for mine. So if you have a tight cap and want to do this, you may want to point this out to your GM and ask if you can break it by a little bit.
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Old 02-05-2010, 04:59 PM   #13
PK
 
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
If you insist on doing it with the limitation, then using the usually equivalent -60% extra for a disadvantage not surprisingly gives you the same result.

ST 2 [-80]
ST -1 (Accessible, Night only -20%, Limited Disadvantage -60%) [-2]

Total -82 points

The cases where it makes a difference tend to be where GURPS' weird limitation system breaks with normal math - adding together percentages, pushing against the -80% cap etc. I might be inclined to try it both ways and use the one that gave you the fewest points. Enhancements or limitations aren't really meant to work with disadvantages.

The other place it makes a difference is when there is a disadvantage cap - PK's scheme accumulates 90 points (or 0 if base attributes don't count) toward it, vs 82 (or 2) for mine. So if you have a tight cap and want to do this, you may want to point this out to your GM and ask if you can break it by a little bit.
The -60% adjustment does work, but (1) only for Accessibility and (2) only if you use exact values by treating the limitation as a fixed range from -0% to -40% and calculating the inverse as (Y=40-X), where X and Y are opposite situations.

In other words, the situations that you say it 'breaks' in are actually very common, so I wouldn't recommend it as a general rule. It gives different values for any X greater than -20%, and breaks when paired with a limitation that doesn't fall into the neat "-0% to -40%" range, even including some Accessibilities. (Example: Accessibility, Only versus supers, is worth -50% in most worlds, while "Not versus supers" is -0%; that produces a difference of 10% between the two approaches.)

And if your GM (A) uses the optional disadvantage limit rule, (B) gives you such a tight limit that you can't work within it, and (C) won't even consider treating "ST -9 [-90] and ST +1 (Limited, -50%) [5]" as a net -85 point disadvantage, then I'd say it is your solemn duty to take your GM out on the town at least once every other week, because he is way too uptight about his game. :)
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Old 02-05-2010, 10:18 PM   #14
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

In this case it ultimately all boils down to how you'd like to list this trait in your file...

A character with:
ST:10(0) plus ST+2;Accessibility: Only at night(16)
Is mechanically, conceptually, practically and points-wise the exact same as a character with:
ST 12(20) plus ST-2; Accessibility: Not at night(-4)

You can could just calculate it regularly as an advantage (ST+2) with Accessibility and if you simply reverse the percentages for that Accessibility write it as a disadvantage; So the -20% "Only at night" for ST+2 becomes -80% for ST-2 "Not at night/Only during the day", in the end you're always paying 16 points for a character to have ST 12 only during the nighttime and ST 10 otherwise.

This is however a particular case for Accessibility on Attributes, because you end up with the same effects for the same point values.
The "reverse percentages" really doesn't work on disadvantages. Applying limitations to disadvantages in general is iffy but if you and your play group are OK with it you shouldn't be afraid to experiment, particularly with Accessibility(Look at how "Albinism" was converted from 3E).
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:08 PM   #15
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Again, I need to state that this is not true, to avoid confusing the newbies. There is a point difference for certain percentages, due to the -80% limit.

For example, say you have a character who has ST 15 normally, but ST 10 during the three nights of the full moon. If you build it the right way, by limiting the bonus, you get:

ST 10 [0]
ST +5 (Accessibility, Not during full moon, -5%) [48]

or 48 points. If you try to flip the limitation around (from -5% to -95%) and apply it to the penalty, you get:

ST 15 [50]
ST -5 (Only during the full moon, -95%) [-10]

or 40 points. (And, if your GM is the kind of incredibly unreasonable person that I discussed in my post above, s/he may say that you've eaten up 10 points of your disadvantage limit, if any. That's wrong, IMO, but it's been pointed out that some GMs are that specific flavor of insane...)

This is why you should start with the lowest possible level of the attribute, and then apply the limitations to any bonus that you're adding. You don't have to figure out "inverse limitations", worry about the math, etc. You always get the right answer.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:21 PM   #16
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Again, I need to state that this is not true, to avoid confusing the newbies. There is a point difference for certain percentages, due to the -80% limit.
Careful, implying a -80% limit to disadvantage limitations exists could set a bad precedent. While disadvantage limitations are rare enough I can't immediately think of any cases where you would bump up against it, if you did somehow have a disadvantage with -200% worth of limitations on it, you probably [shouldn't] get any points for it, not 20% of the base value, it simply doesn't inconvenience you very often.

For the most part, I really wish enhancements and limitations had never been used on disadvantages and you could just blanket rule they never apply.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Careful, implying a -80% limit to disadvantage limitations exists could set a bad precedent.
I'm afraid that precedent has already been set in the Basic Set. The -80% rule applies to any use of modifiers -- it doesn't make an exception for disads. So, while I agree with you that it shouldn't really apply to disads, I think the best thing to do is to avoid limiting disads altogether (with the exception of Mitigator and specific Special Limitations).
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Old 02-06-2010, 03:10 PM   #18
malloyd
 
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
I'm afraid that precedent has already been set in the Basic Set. The -80% rule applies to any use of modifiers -- it doesn't make an exception for disads. So, while I agree with you that it shouldn't really apply to disads, I think the best thing to do is to avoid limiting disads altogether (with the exception of Mitigator and specific Special Limitations).
Oh well.
This is another spot multiplicative multipliers would probably have mitigated the problem. I have no idea why neither GURPS nor Hero goes with a straightforward multiplier system, it avoids all kinds of edge case weirdness. And its not like either system's alternative actually produces simpler math.
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Old 02-06-2010, 05:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
I'm afraid that precedent has already been set in the Basic Set. The -80% rule applies to any use of modifiers -- it doesn't make an exception for disads. So, while I agree with you that it shouldn't really apply to disads, I think the best thing to do is to avoid limiting disads altogether (with the exception of Mitigator and specific Special Limitations).
Surely there's also an implied precedent for "...That's no longer a disadvantage, it's a quirk" (From addictions that come to 0 points, and all the 'weak forms of disadvantages' quirks.)?
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:22 PM   #20
Not another shrubbery
 
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

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Originally Posted by Gizensha View Post
Surely there's also an implied precedent for "...That's no longer a disadvantage, it's a quirk" (From addictions that come to 0 points, and all the 'weak forms of disadvantages' quirks.)?
Rev is talking about the letter of the rules, I think. The pertinent text from B110 mentions the limit applying to traits, not just to advantages.

There really shouldn't be a reason to take that too seriously, though, so long as you trust yourself to limit disads fairly.
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