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Old 02-05-2010, 01:39 AM   #1
muduri
 
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Default limitations on attributes

I'm just trying to figure out the cost of disadvantages like "-1 to all attributes during daylight" (magical goblins, for example) and "+1 to all attributes under full moon" (færie creatures, say). Apologies if this has already been addressed, but I didn't see an exact fit in the rules or the fora so I figured it wouldn't hurt to clarify.

The second seems fairly straightforward - it would be (10+20+20+10) * 60% accessibility for 36 points total, right?

As for the first, does it make the most sense to compute the cost as if the penalty condition is the baseline? Essentially, then, it would be -1 to all attributes (-60 points) and +1 to all attributes at night (60 * 80% = 48 points) for a total of -12: the rationale being that since they choose to act mostly at night, the disadvantage is worth a lot less than the converse advantage.

In the spirit of completeness, I might as well add the disadvantage "-1 to all attributes under a new moon". Maybe 10% (6 points) or even 5% (3 points)? It seems like it's the same principle as "-1 under sunlight" but much less frequent.
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Old 02-05-2010, 05:37 AM   #2
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

I agree with your interpritation that it should be a larger limitation on the disadvantages since it is so easy to choose not to go out in the sunlight. I think -40% is not enough. Basically what you have is a mitigator: stay out of sunlight. So I think I would call it more like what you see for having to wear glasses, -60%.
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Old 02-05-2010, 06:23 AM   #3
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Don't overcomplicate it.
"Characters" and "Powers" offer you very straightforward RAW guidelines to build just what you want.

"Only during the day/night" is a -20% Accessibility, so +1 to ST/DX/IQ/HT during the day/night only is a 48 points advantage or a -12 points disadvantage.

"Only during full moon" or "Only during new moon" is a -40% Accessibility, likewise +1 to all attributes is a 36 points advantage or a -24 points disadvantage.

Just compute each trait individually.
So, if your character has all Basic Attributes at 10, it would get all 11's during the night and 12's during full moon nights(84 points), or if built as a disadvantage, if your character has all Basic attributes at 12, all 11's outside of full moon nights and all 10's during daytime(-36 points)

If you still want the -1 During the new moon effect, this would, points-wise neutralize itself with the +1 during Full moon effect, so you'd ultimately get a 48 points advantage/ -12 points disadvantage (+1 to all attributes at night, an extra+1 during full moons, added -1/unmodified during new moons)
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by muduri View Post
I'm just trying to figure out the cost of disadvantages like "-1 to all attributes during daylight" (magical goblins, for example) and "+1 to all attributes under full moon" (færie creatures, say). Apologies if this has already been addressed, but I didn't see an exact fit in the rules or the fora so I figured it wouldn't hurt to clarify.

The second seems fairly straightforward - it would be (10+20+20+10) * 60% accessibility for 36 points total, right?.
About. But -40% is the wrong accessibility for daylight. Only in daylight is normally -20%, but to balance disadvantages against buying your scores down by 1 and taking the inverse (+1 not in daylight) you need to add 60% to any limitation. So as a disadvantage limitation "only in daylight" goes from -20% to -80%, making this a worth 60 (-80%) = a -12 point disadvantage.

Quote:
As for the first, does it make the most sense to compute the cost as if the penalty condition is the baseline? Essentially, then, it would be -1 to all attributes (-60 points) and +1 to all attributes at night (60 * 80% = 48 points) for a total of -12
Yes this is the correct approach. Same thing I did above really.

You cannot apply limitations to disadvantages without adjusting the costs. The [reason] Accessible doesn't scale with the amount of the time the advantage functions is you are assumed to seek out conditions where it works, but you would avoid conditions a disadvantage hurts you. Adding that extra 60% to the limitation, and remembering that the -80% cap does not apply to disadvantages, with enough limitations can and should be worth -0 points, usually works pretty well.
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:31 AM   #5
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

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Originally Posted by white33 View Post
"Only during the day/night" is a -20% Accessibility, so +1 to ST/DX/IQ/HT during the day/night only is a 48 points advantage or a -12 points disadvantage.

"Only during full moon" or "Only during new moon" is a -40% Accessibility, likewise +1 to all attributes is a 36 points advantage or a -24 points disadvantage.
Look at those again and you can see they are self evidently wrong. Being at -1 at night (half the time) is -12 points, being at -1 only during the new moon (which you've priced at the 5% of the time level, though it probably should be the next band up -35%) is -24 points.
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
Look at those again and you can see they are self evidently wrong. Being at -1 at night (half the time) is -12 points, being at -1 only during the new moon (which you've priced at the 5% of the time level, though it probably should be the next band up -35%) is -24 points.
"Characters" specifically mentions ..."Only during full moon or only during new moon is worth -40%"
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:29 AM   #7
malloyd
 
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

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Originally Posted by white33 View Post
"Characters" specifically mentions ..."Only during full moon or only during new moon is worth -40%"
OK, if you are willing to live with 1.4 days per month maximum.

But that's not the main issue, which is limitations are applicable to advantages. It's not worth -40% as a limitation on a disadvantage. If you accept -40% for the advantage (5% of the time or less, per the table in powers), then as a disadvantage limitation it becomes -100% (the mitigation works 95% of the time or more).
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Old 02-05-2010, 01:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Limiting disadvantages is often a bad idea -- Mitigator (and any special limitations mentioned for the disad specifically) is the only real exception. You should limit the +attribute instead.

So if you want to have ST 11, but be at "-1 to ST at night time", you'd actually buy:

ST 10 [0]
ST +1 (Accessibility, Only during the day, -20%) [8]

Remember that every Accessibility can be phrased as its own inverse. So if you want a penalty to IQ during the full moon, buy extra IQ with "Accessibility, Not during the full moon, -5%".
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:22 PM   #9
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

Maybe I'm tripping on the math, but how would that work with "ST 2, ST 1 in night-time"?

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Old 02-05-2010, 03:26 PM   #10
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Default Re: limitations on attributes

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Originally Posted by sieurin View Post
Maybe I'm tripping on the math, but how would that work with "ST 2, ST 1 in night-time"?
ST 1 [-90]
ST +1 (Accessibility, Daytime only, -20%) [8]

Total -82 points.
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