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Old 02-08-2018, 02:21 PM   #1
Angle
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lafayette, COlorado
Default Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

So I'm playing out a little GURPS Mass Combat scenario, and one of the units I want to use would be dryad trees. Basically, magic trees that are dug up, planted in giant steel bowls, and transported to combat, where they use their magic plant powers in battle. This means the ability to sense and view the battlefield from any plant life, the ability to encourage and control the grow of plant life, the ability to speak from plant life, the ability to project a humanoid body from plant life, etc. If given time to work and focus, they can transform a battlefield into a forest, and can shape this forest into a veritable fortress for their side.

My questions relating to this are twofold - First, what would the transport weight of one of these be? I figure they'd have a mobility of 0, as they're obviously not capable of moving under their own poer very fast, but I'm not certain how to gauge the transport weight. I'm thinking 2-3? I don't think they're as heavy as tanks are, but they're a lot bulkier. I think that would be fine as long as whatever they're moved in had an open top, which most things with a transport weight of 2 or more should be able to? Dunno though. :/

Second, what special classes should they have? I figure recon, for their remote senses, and C3I for the combination of those remote senses and communication. I'm thinking also Engineering, for the plant manipulation? Or maybe that should be it's own separate class, battlefield control? I dunno. Maybe armor too? They are pretty much immune to infantry weapons. :/

Edit: For reference, heres what I've got so far.


Mobile Dryad
TS: (45)
Innate Features: Terrain (Woodland), Battlefield Control (Adds Engineering class in any battle that it doesn't start confused)
Classes: C3I, Eng, Rec
WT: 4
Mob: 0
Raise: 40K
Maintain: 10K
TL: 5

Edit Edit: Armor class probably needs mobility to be justified. Removed.

Edit^3: made TS support. The tree does not fight battles on it's own. ;)

Edit^4: Adjusted WT to 4.

Edit^5: Added Battlefield Control feature.

Last edited by Angle; 02-08-2018 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:42 PM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

Will depend on the size and type of trees being transported. If you can use bonsai dryads, transport is fairly trivial. If you need large trees, transport is completely beyond low tech capabilities.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:45 PM   #3
(E)
 
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Default Re: Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

The diameter of the root system will vary species by species, an oak might have a root system with up to three times the diameter of the crown. Weight might be 10 tons plus the earth. A lot of trees are shallow rooted say 2 meters deep(?).
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:49 PM   #4
Angle
 
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Default Re: Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

Let's assume in this case a fairly medium tree, and one capable of rearranging it's root system if necessary. Total size would be slightly larger in diameter than the width of a tank, but not by a lot. Height would be like 15 FT, maybe? :/
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

TS seems really high for that raise and maintain cost at TL5. TS 45 for $40K is a lot better than TS 2 for $30K with Skirmishers or TS 20 for $400K for a war beast.

I'd put the WT at 4, equivalent to a chariot or war beast.

I don't get why these things have Arm. It's a tree, and people cut down trees with hand weapons all the time. Do you really need an elephant to damage them? It might make more sense to give them (F), to reflect that they don't care too much about archery. Trees are generally resistant to arrows.


Mocking out a simple fight against the Yrth Military Force (Mass Combat p 42):
A single dryad tree has TS 45, Arm 45, C3I 45, Eng 45, Rec 45.
Sir Richard's mixed company of 110 has TS 75.5, Cav 37.5, Eng 2, Fire 4.

In an open field engagement, Sir Richard gets +2 for more than 1.5:1 TS advantage, +3 for Cav advantage, and +3 for Fire advantage. The tree gets +3 for C3I advantage and +3 for Armor advantage, and got a +3 in the Recon contest for Rec advantage. So Richard's up a net of +2, and will probably win, but it's close and could depend on the results of the recon contest.

In a forest, the tree doubles its effective TS and fights at equal odds. If it can be made mobile somehow, it has a +8 advantage in the recon contest (Recon advantage, all recon force, all terrain advantage) and can expect to surprise Sir Richard if they have equal skills with a good chance of ambushing him. It will probably win if it can surprise and almost certainly if it can ambush.

So is a single tree meant to be more than a match for 120 guys in the woods and nearly a match for 120 guys on the plain? If not, you should cut down the TS until it's a match for the appropriate number of guys.
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Old 02-08-2018, 03:03 PM   #6
Angle
 
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Default Re: Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
TS seems really high for that raise and maintain cost at TL5. TS 45 for $40K is a lot better than TS 2 for $30K with Skirmishers or TS 20 for $400K for a war beast.

I'd put the WT at 4, equivalent to a chariot or war beast.

I don't get why these things have Arm. It's a tree, and people cut down trees with hand weapons all the time. Do you really need an elephant to damage them? It might make more sense to give them (F), to reflect that they don't care too much about archery. Trees are generally resistant to arrows.


Mocking out a simple fight against the Yrth Military Force (Mass Combat p 42):
A single dryad tree has TS 45, Arm 45, C3I 45, Eng 45, Rec 45.
Sir Richard's mixed company of 110 has TS 75.5, Cav 37.5, Eng 2, Fire 4.

In an open field engagement, Sir Richard gets +2 for more than 1.5:1 TS advantage, +3 for Cav advantage, and +3 for Fire advantage. The tree gets +3 for C3I advantage and +3 for Armor advantage, and got a +3 in the Recon contest for Rec advantage. So Richard's up a net of +2, and will probably win, but it's close and could depend on the results of the recon contest.

In a forest, the tree doubles its effective TS and fights at equal odds. If it can be made mobile somehow, it has a +8 advantage in the recon contest (Recon advantage, all recon force, all terrain advantage) and can expect to surprise Sir Richard if they have equal skills with a good chance of ambushing him. It will probably win if it can surprise and almost certainly if it can ambush.

So is a single tree meant to be more than a match for 120 guys in the woods and nearly a match for 120 guys on the plain? If not, you should cut down the TS until it's a match for the appropriate number of guys.
I already cut the armor. As for the TS, I put it that high because of the value in terms of battlefield control, communication, recon, engineering, etc. I think you make a good point though - Maybe I should make it have (support) TS. That seems a lot more appropriate. The tree can't fight a battle on it's own, but it can provide a LOT of value to a side under the right conditions. And yeah, I should probably raise the price. Maybe lower the TS a bit too, even as support. :/

Edit: Also, yeah, i think you're right about the WT.

Last edited by Angle; 02-08-2018 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 02-08-2018, 03:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

If we assume a pot that's 10' wide and 3' deep, it's about 10 tons of soil, and is probably adequate for a tree with a 5" trunk diameter (height depends on species, probably 5-10').
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Old 02-08-2018, 03:18 PM   #8
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

I'd definitely give these things the Engineering class, at least. Doing what you've described should certainly help in a siege situation (if you're a Tolkien fan, picture the Ents attacking Isengard - that's some serious Engineering TS at work!). Whether they can apply that in a more mobile battle situation is going to depend on exactly how fast they can do it. You mention that "given time to work and focus, they can transform a battlefield into a forest". Exactly how much time are we talking here? If it's a matter of days or more, you probably don't need any special rules for their Engineering TS - Mass Combat assumes that engineers aren't usually putting up stuff on an actual battle timescale, hence why Engineering superiority only counts in siege situations. On the other hand, if it's a matter of only an hour or two to grow that forest, then you probably do need something. I'd make that a new feature - call it "Battlefield Control", perhaps - and say that an army containing elements with that feature can gain a bonus in a normal battle from Engineering class superiority.
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Old 02-08-2018, 03:23 PM   #9
Angle
 
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Default Re: Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
If we assume a pot that's 10' wide and 3' deep, it's about 10 tons of soil, and is probably adequate for a tree with a 5" trunk diameter (height depends on species, probably 5-10').

Alright, that works. Though out of curiosity, how much would a fifteen foot tree weigh? :/

On another note, I'm also thinking of a unit of barrier mages. I figure they'd have the neutralize feature for both artillery and fire classes. Not sure whether they should be support or not, or if they should have the Engineering class. :/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I'd definitely give these things the Engineering class, at least. Doing what you've described should certainly help in a siege situation (if you're a Tolkien fan, picture the Ents attacking Isengard - that's some serious Engineering TS at work!). Whether they can apply that in a more mobile battle situation is going to depend on exactly how fast they can do it. You mention that "given time to work and focus, they can transform a battlefield into a forest". Exactly how much time are we talking here? If it's a matter of days or more, you probably don't need any special rules for their Engineering TS - Mass Combat assumes that engineers aren't usually putting up stuff on an actual battle timescale, hence why Engineering superiority only counts in siege situations. On the other hand, if it's a matter of only an hour or two to grow that forest, then you probably do need something. I'd make that a new feature - call it "Battlefield Control", perhaps - and say that an army containing elements with that feature can gain a bonus in a normal battle from Engineering class superiority.
Hmm, I'd say they could manage it in hours, yeah. Probably need to burn lots of mana crystals, but thats below the resolution of the system in the same way that bullets and gasoline are.

Though it does bring us back to the question of cost. I don't think this is super important for what I want these for, but it is an interesting question. How much should these cost? I figure the main limitations on raising these are finding them and convincing them to cooperate with you digging them out of the ground and sending them to war. But then, they'd probably want to demand high prices for their service, even if that is in the form of environmental concessions or whatever. And you need to pay people to go find them and recruit them. And it DOES cost something to dig them out of the ground and supply them with mana crystals and whatever. So maybe a cost hike would be appropriate? :/

Last edited by Angle; 02-08-2018 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 02-08-2018, 03:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: Mass Combat: Mobile Dryad Trees

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angle View Post
On another note, I'm also thinking of a unit of barrier mages. I figure they'd have the neutralize feature for both artillery and fire classes. Not sure whether they should be support or not, or if they should have the Engineering class. :/
Personally, I'd guess they'd be support, yeah - most "barrier mages" I can picture are not so hot at winning a battle on their own, just resistance. Whether they have Engineering or not depends on the flexibility and persistence of the "barriers", I think. If they're basically just counterspelling and throwing up walls that last for seconds, just long enough to block an attack, then just neutralizing Artillery and Fire sounds correct. If, on the other hand, they can create walls of force that last for minutes or more, and possibly do tricks like create ramps or other terrain as well, then Engineering sounds justified. And probably give them that "Battlefield Control" feature I mentioned, unless it takes them hours or longer to create a barrier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Angle
Hmm, I'd say they could manage it in hours, yeah.
"Hours" is kind of an edge case when it comes to the Mass Combat system, honestly. By the rules, they probably shouldn't get full Engineering superiority bonuses - what if the battle is done in an hour, when the forest is still only a field of saplings?

Really, the problem here is that Mass Combat actually slightly undervalues Engineering class in non-siege battles. It's for simplicity's sake, of course, but you could use some house rules to make it a bit more useful. As a suggestion, you could say that in a non-siege battle, Engineering still doesn't provide a class superiority bonus, but for every mass combat turn that passes where one side a) has Engineering superiority, b) takes a defensive action, and c) doesn't lose Position Bonus, they can increase their Defense Bonus by +1 (to a maximum of their Engineering superiority bonus +1), representing throwing up hasty earthworks, trenches, etc. behind the front lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angle
How much should these cost?
Ultimately, this is a setting decision you'll have to make - it's really too variable based on a lot of factors: as you've already noted, things like the difficulty of convincing them in the first place, the logistics of moving them, and so on. If none of them fight for money or other material goods in the first place (which happens pretty frequently with fantasy creatures), the cost to raise might actually be quite low, but they'd only be available at all to armies who matched their other values - elves, for example. Of course, if they can only be convinced by specific people, but those people can be hired or otherwise paid, that just puts it back in the realm of prices again.
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