12212014, 08:56 PM  #1 
Join Date: Oct 2012

Acrobatics  tic tac  underwhelming
Running the math for a tic tac (Martial Arts), it just seems, well, lackluster. The height limit is low, but not too bad. The problem is the very narrow space required to do it. I have a character with Basic Move 10, and even she can't do it on anything more than 5' apart. Even worse for more normal characters. I fail to see much benefit from doing it when the walls are just 3 feet apart  you can climb that even if it's perfectly smooth by bracing between them.
Scaling from some Tomb Raider screenshots, which is more along the lines of what I, and I suspect most people, think of as what a high power acrobatic character can do, it's seems she can do it from a standing start (possibly with extra effort) between two surfaces 8 feet apart, possibly as much as 10 feet, but I'll stick with 8. Estimating her stats at around DX 15, HT 12, something like that, I would assume she has Basic Move 8. Which is the same distance in feet as how far apart she can do it. She seems to have a maximum elevation gain of about 20 feet. Which is 2.5 times her Basic Speed. Elevation gain each bounce seems to be about 5 feet, or a quarter of that. Which would seem to pretty much write itself ruleswise as Basic Move feet apart, (adding running start to Basic Move on the ground level), 5/8th Basic Move of height in feet gained each time, and a maximum height gain of 2.5x Basic Move feet. Seems more like what a highpowered Basic Speed 8 could do. Any thoughts? Also, would extra effort increase the height limit, or not? 
12222014, 01:02 AM  #3 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Newcastle, Australia

Re: Acrobatics  tic tac  underwhelming
I would think the height you could gain might also be limited by the distance between the walls.
There are not as many videos of people doing this as I would have expected though. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=we8WuOC1yUE 
12222014, 06:04 AM  #4  
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon

Re: Acrobatics  tic tac  underwhelming
Quote:
The rules involve distance between walls as it is.
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12222014, 08:17 AM  #5 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Eindhoven, the Netherlands

Re: Acrobatics  tic tac  underwhelming
I understood the point of tictacs as speed, not height. You don't try to tictac up a mountain, you climb it. But if you need to get over the top of a fence at the end of a narrow alleyway during a footchase, then a tictac is in order.
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12222014, 04:10 PM  #6  
Join Date: Oct 2012

Re: Acrobatics  tic tac  underwhelming
This video (20 seconds in) and this screenshot (more accurate distance, although I can't find the ones I scaled it from) shows what I'm thinking about as what most people think of it. It just seems that even with extreme basic move (move 8 is gold medal winning olympic gymnast IMHO), not being able to do it between walls you can't touch at the same times just seems wrong. Heck, not even basic move 10 being able to do it seems wrong. It just seems like basic move feet like I posted above would model highpower characters better.
Quote:


12222014, 07:34 PM  #7  
Join Date: Oct 2012

Re: Acrobatics  tic tac  underwhelming
Quote:
Definitely a tic tac in the game, and I even somewhat surprised myself how closely it seems to model the video you posted. Seems to pass the real life test, and also gives the results you expect for high powered acrobatic characters. 

12222014, 08:04 PM  #8  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada

Re: Acrobatics  tic tac  underwhelming
Quote:
The stairwell is 18 bricks wide, you can see them in the foreground. One standard brick is 3 5/8" wide, plus about 1/6" mortar per brick, gives a width of 68 1/4" or 5.6875 feet, which is around the standard width of a sidewalk. Proportionately to the parkourist, the stairwell visually checks out as about the width of a sidewalk, not the width of a sidewalk plus 50%ish. His first kickoff is 13 bricks off the ground, 13 times 2 1/4" height (standard brick) plus about 1/6" mortar per brick = 21 2/3" height, a pretty reasonable jump height. His second kickoff is 19 bricks off the ground, 45.9" He hits the destination wall with his toes 18 bricks off the ground and is clearly loosing jumping height, but he can grab the top and clambers over. EDIT: You might be having problems with the extreme fisheye effect caused by the very short lens on cellphones and the nearlyontheground camera angle causing some really severe foreshortening. Combine that with the parkourist travelling into the background and things get pretty distorted.
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12222014, 10:52 PM  #9  
Join Date: Oct 2012

Re: Acrobatics  tic tac  underwhelming
Quote:
I still get his own height on the second shove off, which is 6ft, assuming that's his height, and there seems to be no way around that. His apparent height is the same before, during and after that point, so there's not a lot of room for variation. I measured width scaling from his height (to the point of the first kickoff on the left wall, that's required to get the distance right) as 8.25 feet, and there seems to be no way around that. Running it past the smell test, I find it highly unlikely that a large, curved stairway like that would be standard sidewalk width. Nearly all my experience and judgement would make it a couple of feet wider. Considering he fails to gain height on the second bounce, but also stays about the same height, it's hard to figure out what exactly it represents in GURPS. A full 7 yard running start gets him the correct height on the second bounce, but still 2 feet short horizontally. The question is what to consider the second bounce. He goes the full distance, but fails to gain height, but the way the description in Martial Arts is written, he could still do that although failing to reach the opposite wall. Although I don't quite get how the heck you can fail to reach the far wall and still hang from it at the same height you started. So considering what I've learned here, and fixing a very open flaw in the initial draft, here's the revised draft of my rules, actually closer to the mechanics from RAW that the first draft: Improved draft of the rules  your horizontal distance is half your jumping distance, standing plus any running start or distance since the previous bounce, and minus a foot at the end, and your vertical distance is your high jump distance, standing plus any running start or distance since previous bounce. That would get sustainable distance back to about right, and let the guy (assuming Basic Move 6) in the video's 9.5 foot long (on first bounce with running start) and 62 inch high bounce trade distance for height for a 8.25 foot long and 72 inch high jump. (I need to do a spreadsheet making distance/height easier.) The second bounce is about a foot short on the far wall ((Basic Move 6 +2.5 yard start) x 2, 3 is 14, halved for 7, then 1 foot for 6 feet, or two feet or a little more feet short), but close enough to grab the top and maintain height (after grabbing). Your maximum height is still Basic Move x 2.5 feet. From the "high powered acrobatic character" (move 8) above, that would be a 13.5 ft long and 7ft high initial bounce (although at no point does she get anything like that much), although the maximum for more than one bounce is about 8.5 feet long and 56 inches up. The long distance for a running start seems long, but it's only 1.5 feet more than her standing long jump anyway. anyway. Considering the scaling from the picture above could easily be 910 ft if measured differently (my method underestimated distance), and 56" is pretty darned within the margin of error for 5 feet, that doesn't seem to bad. Maximum height still fits, as it did from the beginning. That seems to be the final draft, fits everything well (enough), matches what feels right for both Move 6 and 8, and considering that in real life height and distance are a tradeoff, more or less passes the reality check to within GURPS resolution. 

12222014, 11:57 PM  #10 
Join Date: Sep 2006

Re: Acrobatics  tic tac  underwhelming
Looking at the video, I count 19 pavements for the width of the stairs. Thats 209 cm at a standart width of 11 cm+ joints: 230 cm at most, 7ft 6 in. Possibly less if the pavement is thinner (10.5 cm or 10 are not uncommon), no more given the relative size of the foot over the pavement imho.
Celjabba Last edited by Celjabba; 12232014 at 12:55 AM. 
Tags 
acrobatics, basic speed, houserule, martial arts, tic tac 
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