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Old 11-09-2014, 07:15 PM   #11
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
A Finger Lock can be extremely painful if applied correctly and it only takes one hand to apply/maintain, leaving your other arm free. You need much more control and/or strength to apply the same amount of pain with an Arm Lock, and even more if you attempt to do it one handed.

You generally don't use a Finger Lock to damage, you use it to control.

That's at least my experience from back when I was practicing Jujutsu several years ago.
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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Quite. An eight-year-old with good knowledge of finger locks could, with proper technique, take a grown man to the ground. In fact, I've both seen it done and taught it.
Yup. This. As someone who has seen this actually used in real life "combat" conditions (my old boss did it to rowdy drunks as a way to quell any friends he might have and not cause lasting harm to the subject) it is impressive as hell. My best friend studied akido for a long time and I've seen him pull this off as well. Again, as a deterrent. It still hurts like the dickens, but I've seen it mostly used to get that +4 bonus to Intimidate. Just my two cents.
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Old 11-09-2014, 07:31 PM   #12
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

Odd. In grade school, a strange kid bent my finger back until it broke. But while it hurt, of course, it didn't hurt anywhere near as much as I expected a broken bone to.
I swear, maybe I just have high pain threshold, but only on my right side.

Pain compliance only works if the target trusts you to do worse if you don't comply. Most Gurps combat involves less "social" forms, I imagine. More target knockdown, less intimidation through pain. But of course, YMMV.
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Old 11-09-2014, 09:03 PM   #13
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Odd. In grade school, a strange kid bent my finger back until it broke. But while it hurt, of course, it didn't hurt anywhere near as much as I expected a broken bone to.
I swear, maybe I just have high pain threshold, but only on my right side.
Actually having fingers and hands broken isn't terribly good at making people stop fighting. And it generally hurts less than you'd expect. So it's not that odd. I know people personally who've just kept going through broken fingers. Fine motor skills suffered, but willingness to fight, even fight effectively with a broken hand, suffered little - like Gerard Gordeau in UFC 1.

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Pain compliance only works if the target trusts you to do worse if you don't comply.
Well, pain compliance works even on people who don't think you'll do worse. The pain alone can be excruciating, and it can be hard to take. But there are things that, if you can push through that pain to the actual injury, don't actually cripple you up that much. Finger locks, for example, can hurt a lot, but if the actual finger breaks, you're not that bad off in the immediate aftermath if you don't need the finger for some task.

Part of the reason some styles try to leverage finger locks into larger joint locks via pain is that it's hard to ignore that initial pain, or force the person to just inflict injury . . . and they can use that pain to gain a hold that can cause actual functional crippling that will disable you. It's the "finger lock which gets a wrist-breaking wrist lock" or "toe hold that leads to a knee bar" approach. Pain compliance can make that happen simply because humans don't generally ignore blinding pain so well.
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Old 11-09-2014, 11:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

That sounds like a realistic human on human psychological quirk that doesn't genericise very well. As well as it falling below the time frame of combat maneuvers in Gurps.
I don't think many other animals pause when injured and aware of exactly what just caused it.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:12 AM   #15
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
If you look at Technical Grappling, you will see this is no longer true. [ . . . ] Yes, I'm promoting my own work, but Hand Locks are, in TG, Average techniques. See pp. 38-39.
Well let's face it: MA and TG are at least as big, likely bigger, than between 4e and 3e. I was hoping to understand finger locks in the context of MA, not throw away MA mechanics and replace them with different ones.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:17 AM   #16
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
You study the Chin Na Style so you can stack Technique Mastery: Finger Lock on top of TM: Arm Lock. You do this because it is _cool_.

This is the raison d'etre for many Techniques in Gurps.. Dumping more cp into the primary Skill almost always makes ore sense pointswise.
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I probably would put cp into a Technique and possibly even multiple Techniques but I would primarily do, it for reasons of characterization or at least unique capabilities like Choke Hold. The math seldom adds up compared to building up the base skill..
I was actually considering Chin Na with its +6 limit of Arm Lock, but out of efficiency reasons. From a coolness perspective, being able to use many different techniques seems like more fun and interesting-looking, and that is done by raising overall skill. IMHO.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:30 AM   #17
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Realistically, it's a somewhat marginal technique. Some styles teach it, but not a lot. Those that do generally teach a small number of them, and use them for pain compliance more than inflicting injury.

In game, it's got a number of uses, but they're generally special cases - you've grappled a hand instead an an arm, or you don't have a great shot at inflicting enough damage to cripple a limb but might get it off on an extremity.

The last part is especially true if you use cumulative injuries for crippling.
Ah. Though I'm not sure why cumulative injuries would make things much different. One still tends to inflict more damage with an Arm Lock, enough to compensate the crippling threshold difference either way.

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
But yes, it's expensive for what you get, but if you get good at it, it's got a number of cases where it's a useful technique. If you're not good at, it's not terribly effective. See also Counterattack, Head Butt, any of the eye attacks, etc. - some moves just don't work terribly well by default.
Hmm. I was actually looking at Head Butt and Eye Gouge lately, and I think they're effective in specific situations. Head Butt is nice if your arms and legs are busy, such as during a Pin (if you're the pinning one), and maybe when you can't Knee Strike. Eye Gouge seems like an awesome thing to do if you only have Brawling and you just survived an All-Out Attack by the enemy: you can do AoA (Determined, +4) and Telegraphic Attack, so even with Brawling 10 you can now roll against 13 to grapple and blind the opponent, you now roll against ST+5 to resist attempts to break free, and the opponent is now at -10 to -14 to attacks (-4 DX for being grappled, -10 for 'cannot see anything' OR -6 if 'used to blindness'); and it's now a Wild Swing (max 9) for the blindness.

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Lack of choice, basically. It's worth it if you improve it, or if you've got a solid Arm Lock skill to default off of but happen to have grappled a hand instead of an arm. Generally, it's not great when you have to default it.
Oh well, I guess nothing can be done about it.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:45 AM   #18
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
Actually having fingers and hands broken isn't terribly good at making people stop fighting. And it generally hurts less than you'd expect. So it's not that odd. I know people personally who've just kept going through broken fingers. Fine motor skills suffered, but willingness to fight, even fight effectively with a broken hand, suffered little - like Gerard Gordeau in UFC 1..
That's true but how committed to continuing the fight and how used to pain a person is will be key here.

In a life of death situation I don't the pain of broken finger is enough to stop us, but as submission technique by a bouncer to concentrate the mind of some drunk office worker to stop being an ass it probably enough in a lot of situations. (that said sweaty naked fingers are probably more likely to get CR than a wrist so it's probably easier to maintain a grip on a wrist than a finger in some situations)
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Old 11-10-2014, 05:28 AM   #19
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
That's true but how committed to continuing the fight and how used to pain a person is will be key here.

In a life of death situation I don't the pain of broken finger is enough to stop us, but as submission technique by a bouncer to concentrate the mind of some drunk office worker to stop being an ass it probably enough in a lot of situations. (that said sweaty naked fingers are probably more likely to get CR than a wrist so it's probably easier to maintain a grip on a wrist than a finger in some situations)
Alcohol is likely to brunt or even negate the pain of even a broken finger.
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Old 11-10-2014, 05:35 AM   #20
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Default Re: [MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Alcohol is likely to brunt or even negate the pain of even a broken finger.

To an extent, but it tends to blunt or negate other methods of drawing the drinkers attention to things faster though!

It's not about crippling someone with pain (which I agree is not close to certain with finger locks), its about focussing attention or dissuading someone.

Don't get me wrong all in all I'd favour a wrist lock over a finger lock!
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