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Old 11-10-2014, 04:00 PM   #11
Gedrin
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

I'm thinking that the two piece tool, where the handle separates for carrying, would be TL2 and while an odd piece of gear, wouldn't be considered particularly "custom".

The threaded nut and hinge variety would be a TL4 item, but the sort of thing that could be produced at TL2 with appropriate craftsmen. The idea is easier than the execution until TL4. I'd place the super fold-up three piece kind as TL5, but producible at TL2, with applicable costs.

Seem reasonable?

Also, while soldiers have always needed to move dirt, when did the need for each individual soldier to carry his own shovel (a heavy thing) come about? I'm guessing rapid fire weapons, but was there a standard need earlier?

This site seems to indicate machine guns as the line:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/w...o-Helmand.html
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:10 PM   #12
johndallman
 
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

I think the distinction is between "The unit needs to have enough tools to use its manpower for digging", which has been true since the Romans took to fortifying each nightly camp, and "Each soldier needs to have a digging tool as part of his combat load."

The latter probably dates as a need from the advent of accurate long-range rifle fire, although it may not have been generally implemented until armies learned what machine guns could do a little later.

The former allows the tools to be part of the baggage-train, rather than in the combat load.
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Old 11-10-2014, 04:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I think the distinction is between "The unit needs to have enough tools to use its manpower for digging", which has been true since the Romans took to fortifying each nightly camp, and "Each soldier needs to have a digging tool as part of his combat load."

The latter probably dates as a need from the advent of accurate long-range rifle fire, although it may not have been generally implemented until armies learned what machine guns could do a little later.

The former allows the tools to be part of the baggage-train, rather than in the combat load.
Makes perfect sense.
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:30 AM   #14
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

Oookay, so if you can make it Expensive and better weapons-wise, we get:

Folding Shovel, Expensive (+1CF), Very Fine materials (non-sword weapon, +49CF), Balanced (+4CF). Total +54CF.

Result: 2 lbs mass, Very Fine Ax-equivalent (sw+4 cut), -1 to hit (+1 with Exotic Weapon Training instead), Parry 0U, $1055 = $550.

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Old 11-11-2014, 01:51 AM   #15
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Munchmunchmunch?
If it's actually possible, that looks correct. Ludicrously expensive, but useful.
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Old 11-12-2014, 02:32 PM   #16
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
G
So, High-Tech p.25 gives us the Shovel, Folding, aka the Entrenching Tool. Which awesomely can perform the function of a shovel, a pick (according to people who used one, not explicit in HT), and can also be used as an ax at -2 skill*.
Also as a knee stool "toilet seat"...
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Old 11-12-2014, 03:41 PM   #17
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Oookay, so if you can make it Expensive and better weapons-wise, we get:

Folding Shovel, Expensive (+1CF), Very Fine materials (non-sword weapon, +49CF), Balanced (+4CF). Total +54CF.

Result: 2 lbs mass, Very Fine Ax-equivalent (sw+4 cut), -1 to hit (+1 with Exotic Weapon Training instead), Parry 0U, $1055 = $550.

Munchmunchmunch?
In a setting with magic, that low weight makes it a great candidate for some cool weapon enchantments... I'm going to have to keep this in mind.
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Old 11-12-2014, 06:13 PM   #18
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

I've been lent an entrenching tool, which I've played with a bit. It seems to be the post-WWII West German model, which has a shovel blade and a pick, and a good lock for them. It weighs 2.75lb, and if you sharpened the edges, it would be nasty to be hit with. You also can definitely hit people with the flat.

It's seriously unbalanced, with the centre of gravity at the handle edge of the shovel blade, but I don't have the experience to compare it with an axe or mace.

It's TL7, I reckon, for the neat lock and its spring. Making this before TL5 would be quite hard: its design is precise and needs to be fitted right.
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Old 11-13-2014, 07:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

You're living the stereotype with this sharpened-shovel obsession, vicky. It's very eastern slav of you...
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Old 11-13-2014, 07:41 PM   #20
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Default Re: Folding Shovel / Entrenching Tool - quality rules and customization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Oookay, so if you can make it Expensive and better weapons-wise, we get:

Folding Shovel, Expensive (+1CF), Very Fine materials (non-sword weapon, +49CF), Balanced (+4CF). Total +54CF.

Result: 2 lbs mass, Very Fine Ax-equivalent (sw+4 cut), -1 to hit (+1 with Exotic Weapon Training instead), Parry 0U, $1055 = $550.

Munchmunchmunch?
Personally, I wouldn't allow Expensive for non-combat tools or other equipment and Very Fine + Fine (Balanced) for weapons on the other hand.

The alterations that you make to a tool to optimise it to be the best possible shovel or pick for the lighest weight are simply not the same to make it the best possible weapon for its weight.

It's perfectly reasonable for the GM to say that a given tool is either a Fine (Balanced) weapon or its a very good tool.

Theres's a reason why 'the best' real-life combat knives are not all the same types, but actually vary by what you want the knife for. The best cutting tool is not the same as the best weapon for stealthy sentry removal.
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