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Old 11-07-2014, 05:25 AM   #11
Erling
 
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
and cause a Major Wound against normal opponent (24 = 8), resulting in an effective HT-5 roll to stay conscious
Little note: technically it's not HT-5 roll, it's HT-6 roll. If someone has HT 15 and gets a critical blow to a head, he rolls against 5 to avoid stunning, and roll 10 or higher mean MoF 5+ and unconsiousness. That means he needs to roll 9 (HT-6) or lower to stay conscious.
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Old 11-07-2014, 05:33 AM   #12
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

People have been shot in the head and remained conscious. I doubt any small melee weapons have a better chance of reliably killing via head shots while keeping targets silent than bullets.

I do think that most normal humans' first instinct when attacked is to spend at least a fraction of a second evaluating the situation. By the time that's over they've lost consciousness.
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Old 11-07-2014, 05:55 AM   #13
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
People have been shot in the head and remained conscious. I doubt any small melee weapons have a better chance of reliably killing via head shots while keeping targets silent than bullets.
Yep, to get a truly instant kill I believe snipers aim for the medulla oblongata (aka apricot pit). That's a pretty precise shot!

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
I do think that most normal humans' first instinct when attacked is to spend at least a fraction of a second evaluating the situation. By the time that's over they've lost consciousness.
Only a surprise response can also be a shout/scream in surprise
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:04 AM   #14
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

I'd think theres a good chance that the stunned reaction involves no loud sound emitted (esp. from headwound knockdown result).
Though nothing to rely on completly.
Maybe a luck roll kind of thing for that - 50/50 chances for ordinary surprise stunned reaction, smaller chanche for cry out for stun reaction that involves your brains being shaken inside your skull. (lets say 1/4 or worse)
Can modify this with luck advantages etc.

There might be tradeoffs -- "Am I more likely to succeed a mouth covering grapple and then continue the grapple and sound suppression for long and effectively enough vs. likelihood in succeeding in some quick and dirty smack to the head and hoping the surprise/stun will be enough to keep the sentry quiet."

Probably first one is better for really trained PC-s the latter who have received just a quick instruction or seen hollywoood movies might be better off with just trying their luck with something quick and dirty.
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Old 11-07-2014, 06:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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I'd think theres a good chance that the stunned reaction involves no loud sound emitted (esp. from headwound knockdown result).
Though nothing to rely on completly.
Maybe a luck roll kind of thing for that - 50/50 chances for ordinary surprise stunned reaction, smaller chanche for cry out for stun reaction that involves your brains being shaken inside your skull. (lets say 1/4 or worse)
Can modify this with luck advantages etc.

There might be tradeoffs -- "Am I more likely to succeed a mouth covering grapple and then continue the grapple and sound suppression for long and effectively enough vs. likelihood in succeeding in some quick and dirty smack to the head and hoping the surprise/stun will be enough to keep the sentry quiet."

Probably first one is better for really trained PC-s the latter who have received just a quick instruction or seen hollywoood movies might be better off with just trying their luck with something quick and dirty.
Yes I think your right, the problem is when you having to do this you tend to be doing so in situations were you need it to go well.

I.e if a silent removal isn't really that important you wouldn't go to the trouble of attempting which it self opens you to risk. You'd just shoot them.

Which is why as stated it trained as a two man job from a position of surprise, i.e you eliminate variables and stack the situation in your favor as much as possible because the repercussion of failure are high.
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Old 11-07-2014, 09:37 AM   #16
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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First of all, it must be said that sentry removal is a risky activity that is sometimes easier done in a crude manner than with all the fancy techniques. E.g., under default adventuring sound conditions, a bolt-action .30 rifle fitted with the best suppressor has less than 10% chance of being heard if fired from 70 yards away, 50% chance from 10 yards (assuming Per 10 for the enemies). A shot without a silencer will be heard from far, but might not be considered anything particularly unusual if there's a low-intensity combat activity going on in the vicinity for days nonstop with occasional high-intensity ones (e.g. what the current reports about Donetsk Airport seem to be indicating).
Note that in the real world, a lot of the time sentry removal with fancy ninja techniques is too hard to even attempt. Shooting people, with suppressed or even not suppressed weapons, tends to be the solution of choice.

Note that when the details of special operations have become public, it's extremely rare that anyone has silently disposed of any guards before infiltrating a building, compound or area. Even Navy SEALS or Delta Force operators just shoot the guards outside before they move closer. In reality, failure is usually too likely and the consequences too severe to risk it.

Also note that carrying a suppressed bolt-action rifle with subsonic ammunition and top-of-the-line suppressor is not exactly crude. It's Bond-movie levels of gadgetry, a bulky and heavy special weapon carried only to meet a single esoteric tactical requirement.
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Old 11-07-2014, 09:52 AM   #17
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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I wonder whether it's faster to go for a Choke Hold with knife in right hand, with the left hand being the 'main' grappling one, while the right arm being merely assisting as if handless (i.e. 'crook-of-arm' applied to only one arm, while the other is fully operational), then releasing one hand after the choking started (thus relinquishing the +5 to hold on), and going for a Vitals stab (AoA or not) on the second turn of combat.
I've wondered how to do this game-mechanically.

If you have a knife in one hand, but are willing to use your whole body and the crook of the knife hand to grapple, you clearly have an effective ST higher than just 0.5 x ST. On the other hand, lacking a second hand to grasp with is worth some kind of penalty.

I couldn't find a reference in Technical Grappling. My instinct was that using an arm to grapple with while still holding something was equal to using a limb with No Fine Manipulators, which meant that it added 0.3 x ST in such a case.

That's how I've played it, at least.

Obviously, having Grip Mastery and good Armed Grappling allows you to use the knife for grappling to get full ST and a nice bonus to CP and then switch seamlessly to stabbing with the knife, but not everyone has Grip Mastery for their knives.
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Old 11-07-2014, 11:22 AM   #18
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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... a bolt-action .30 rifle fitted with the best suppressor has less than 10% chance of being heard if fired from 70 yards away, 50% chance from 10 yards (assuming Per 10 for the enemies).
OK, that works for a -4 suppressor, -1 for bolt action and -2 for subsonic rifle ammo, for a total of -7.

But the historical suppressors we have written up aren't as good as that. The Welrod in Tactical Shooting is -3, including the -1 for manual action, and its .32 ACP round seems to be already subsonic. And that's supposed to have been the best available for decades. There isn't anything as good as the rules allow in Tactical Shooting AFAICS.
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Old 11-07-2014, 12:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Note that in the real world, a lot of the time sentry removal with fancy ninja techniques is too hard to even attempt. Shooting people, with suppressed or even not suppressed people, tends to be the solution of choice.

Note that when the details of special operations have become public, it's extremely rare that anyone has silently disposed of any guards before infiltrating a building, compound or area. Even Navy SEALS or Delta Force operators just shoot the guards outside before they move closer. In reality, failure is usually too likely and the consequences too severe to risk it.
Makes me wonder how much the stories about sneaky Gurkha are hype, BTW. (Though I do realise that the frequency of sneaky disposals is usually exaggerated, what I'm wondering is whether all of it is lies, or merely a distortion of frequencies.)

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Also note that carrying a suppressed bolt-action rifle with subsonic ammunition and top-of-the-line suppressor is not exactly crude. It's Bond-movie levels of gadgetry, a bulky and heavy special weapon carried only to meet a single esoteric tactical requirement.
1-2 pounds doesn't sound like much if it can repeatedly prevent one's position from being discovered - in fact, that sounds like an awesome feature for a marksman/sniper.

I didn't think of subsonic ammo, as that would indeed be very specialised, bondish.

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
OK, that works for a -4 suppressor, -1 for bolt action and -2 for subsonic rifle ammo, for a total of -7.

But the historical suppressors we have written up aren't as good as that. The Welrod in Tactical Shooting is -3, including the -1 for manual action, and its .32 ACP round seems to be already subsonic. And that's supposed to have been the best available for decades. There isn't anything as good as the rules allow in Tactical Shooting AFAICS.
Dirty-tech handmade suppressors seem to be reasonably able to reach the -3 level (e.g. VKT-Lahti Pstkiv/39's improvised drum suppressor) and go all the way up.
Ruger Standard MK1's integral suppressor is a -4 after the slidelock mod.
Barrett M82A1's is -4, and it's semi-auto (so no bolt-action modifier!); of course, I'm pointing at the suppressor's power, not at the rifle, in this example.

(Note: I'm talking about Baffle suppressors; I'm finding Wipers extremely expensive per shot suppressed and quickly-consumable for the sorts of characters I would like to play.)
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Old 11-07-2014, 12:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: [MA] Silent Sentry Removal

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I've wondered how to do this game-mechanically.
It seems reasonably straightforward with Sound Of One Hand Grappling (MA): since the penalty to initiate a lock or choke with one hand is -2, doing it with two arms but only one hand would be at -1 as the only possible mid-range value. The choke hold I know doesn't rely on the right hand having fingers*, so having them occupied by a knife doesn't seem to be a factor for the ST-based rolls to choke the target. (I'm talking about a right-handed attacker.) After initiating the choke - i.e. once the target started losing FP from suffocation, we don't try to do any MoS-based damage, and go for knifing. Sure, if we tried to choke, we'd be using half ST, so we just don't care. If the target tries to break free, we have to suffer a straight (one-handed) Quick Contest of ST adjusted for Wrestling and/or Power Grappling.

The question is whether the extra risk of breaking free on subsequent turns is worth the stab to the Vitals.

* == I suspect e.g. TKD can prove how little I know and give examples.
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