Optimising Sleep cycles for a party posting a watch? - Page 2

Varyon · 10-17-2014, 07:28 AM

I find the GURPS rules for sleeping too harsh - or, rather, I find the rules for recovery too harsh. For me, and for those I know, staying up an entire night probably gives results comparable to the GURPS rules (at "bedtime" the next night, the character would be at -7 FP from missing sleep, which is a bit harsh but not outlandish). However, simply sleeping for a full sleep period seems to get rid of most if not all of this, and at worst you're probably talking an extra couple of hours to get back to full - while GURPS rules only give back 1 FP for a full night's rest and 1 FP per hour after that, meaning you'd have to sleep for 14 hours to get back to full.

Personally, I'd probably stick with the current FP loss rules (well, I'd probably change them to be -1 FP per quarter day, round up, and get rid of that first FP hit for not going to sleep at exactly 16 hours; that changes things to -6 FP above) but modify recovery substantially. Something like regaining 1 FP for every quarter of the sleep cycle (typically 2 hours) would work.

With that variant, you could manage a cycle where the whole party only needs to spend 8 hours on sleep, provided you have 3 or more people. On Day 1, Person A stays up an extra 4 hours and loses 1 FP, then wakes up Person B. Person B stays up the rest of the night and wakes up the other two at the end of his 4 hour shift. So, A is at full FP (regained what he lost by sleeping) but only has 8 hours before his "day" is up (he lost 4 hours last night), B is at full FP but only has 4 hours before his "day" is up (he lost 4 hours last night, dropping his "day" to 8 hours, and he's spent 4 of that keeping watch), C is at full FP and can go a full 16 hours. 16 hours later, A is at -2 FP, B is at -3 FP. C takes first watch, losing 1 FP. He wakes up A (who is now at full FP) and goes to sleep. B sleeps the entire night. The result is the next day, A is at full FP and has 4 hours left to his "day," B is fully rested with 16 hours left to his "day," and C is at full FP and has 8 hours left to his "day." This rotation can continue indefinitely. With additional people in the party, you can either opt to have more of them fully rested at a time and/or have shorter watch shifts.

johndallman · 10-17-2014, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon

For me, and for those I know, staying up an entire night probably gives results comparable to the GURPS rules (at "bedtime" the next night, the character would be at -7 FP from missing sleep, which is a bit harsh but not outlandish). However, simply sleeping for a full sleep period seems to get rid of most if not all of this, and at worst you're probably talking an extra couple of hours to get back to full - while GURPS rules only give back 1 FP for a full night's rest and 1 FP per hour after that, meaning you'd have to sleep for 14 hours to get back to full.

This appears to vary. When I was 21, my university wargames society took part in a sleep deprivation experiment. We got up at our normal time on Friday and did a normal day, then reported for the experiment at about 18:00 and were kept awake for a further 48 hours.

The experimenter told us "You'll feel very tired and want to go to sleep straight away, but you'll wake up at your normal time the next day, maybe feeling a bit tired." He notably did not check that assertion against what actually happened. I stayed out for 24 hours until woken by hunger, had a meal, then went straight back to sleep for another 12 hours, after which I was OK. The other participants reported similar experiences.

Varyon · 10-17-2014, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman

This appears to vary. When I was 21, my university wargames society took part in a sleep deprivation experiment. We got up at our normal time on Friday and did a normal day, then reported for the experiment at about 18:00 and were kept awake for a further 48 hours.

The experimenter told us "You'll feel very tired and want to go to sleep straight away, but you'll wake up at your normal time the next day, maybe feeling a bit tired." He notably did not check that assertion against what actually happened. I stayed out for 24 hours until woken by hunger, had a meal, then went straight back to sleep for another 12 hours, after which I was OK. The other participants reported similar experiences.

Perhaps I (and those I've inquired to about this) am some sort of freak, but I think the only time - outside of illness - that I slept for 12 hours was when I pulled an all-nighter finishing some project or another for class, then the next night didn't really feel like sleeping and just watched TV and played video games until the sun came up. I think I finally fell asleep around 22:00 and woke up around 10:00 the next morning, slightly groggy at first but fully awake (and with no issues the rest of the day, and going to bed at a normal time that night) once I had my shower. That's something like 60 hours straight, or 12 FP of damage. Even my suggested system wouldn't allow a character to repeat my action, but then again I probably have (or at least had back then) Less Sleep 2 or so.

Flyndaran · 10-17-2014, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon

I find the GURPS rules for sleeping too harsh - or, rather, I find the rules for recovery too harsh. For me, and for those I know, staying up an entire night probably gives results comparable to the GURPS rules (at "bedtime" the next night, the character would be at -7 FP from missing sleep, which is a bit harsh but not outlandish). However, simply sleeping for a full sleep period seems to get rid of most if not all of this, and at worst you're probably talking an extra couple of hours to get back to full - while GURPS rules only give back 1 FP for a full night's rest and 1 FP per hour after that, meaning you'd have to sleep for 14 hours to get back to full.
....

That doesn't follow any of the sleep studies I've read. A big problem with anecdotes in this field is that none of us are good judges of overall sleep induced fatigue. People that are sure they get enough sleep consistently do better on cognitive tests after getting one more hour a night.
Sleep debt is woefully underestimated.
Up until my 30s I would need to sleep 10+ hours to fully and quickly recover from too long periods of wakefulness and/or previous periods of too little sleep.

That said, I think for ultra-realism some kind of HT roll to increase recovery rate seems reasonable.

Flyndaran · 10-17-2014, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varyon

Perhaps I (and those I've inquired to about this) am some sort of freak, but I think the only time - outside of illness - that I slept for 12 hours was when I pulled an all-nighter finishing some project or another for class, then the next night didn't really feel like sleeping and just watched TV and played video games until the sun came up. ...

When I get sick, I usually sleep like the dead one maybe two nights and am perfectly fine. (Present cold from hell being the evil fluke.)

10-17-2014, 07:28 AM	#11
Varyon Join Date: Jun 2013	Re: Optimising Sleep cycles for a party posting a watch? I find the GURPS rules for sleeping too harsh - or, rather, I find the rules for recovery too harsh. For me, and for those I know, staying up an entire night probably gives results comparable to the GURPS rules (at "bedtime" the next night, the character would be at -7 FP from missing sleep, which is a bit harsh but not outlandish). However, simply sleeping for a full sleep period seems to get rid of most if not all of this, and at worst you're probably talking an extra couple of hours to get back to full - while GURPS rules only give back 1 FP for a full night's rest and 1 FP per hour after that, meaning you'd have to sleep for 14 hours to get back to full. Personally, I'd probably stick with the current FP loss rules (well, I'd probably change them to be -1 FP per quarter day, round up, and get rid of that first FP hit for not going to sleep at exactly 16 hours; that changes things to -6 FP above) but modify recovery substantially. Something like regaining 1 FP for every quarter of the sleep cycle (typically 2 hours) would work. With that variant, you could manage a cycle where the whole party only needs to spend 8 hours on sleep, provided you have 3 or more people. On Day 1, Person A stays up an extra 4 hours and loses 1 FP, then wakes up Person B. Person B stays up the rest of the night and wakes up the other two at the end of his 4 hour shift. So, A is at full FP (regained what he lost by sleeping) but only has 8 hours before his "day" is up (he lost 4 hours last night), B is at full FP but only has 4 hours before his "day" is up (he lost 4 hours last night, dropping his "day" to 8 hours, and he's spent 4 of that keeping watch), C is at full FP and can go a full 16 hours. 16 hours later, A is at -2 FP, B is at -3 FP. C takes first watch, losing 1 FP. He wakes up A (who is now at full FP) and goes to sleep. B sleeps the entire night. The result is the next day, A is at full FP and has 4 hours left to his "day," B is fully rested with 16 hours left to his "day," and C is at full FP and has 8 hours left to his "day." This rotation can continue indefinitely. With additional people in the party, you can either opt to have more of them fully rested at a time and/or have shorter watch shifts.