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Old 03-22-2013, 04:26 PM   #1
Tomsdad
 
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Default Face & Neck location damage multiplier

Ok I've been thinking about this, and i'm struggling to get the justification for why there's such limited additional damage for targeting these locations (necks not as bad as face though).

On thing I'm leaving aside the 1 in 6 chance of getting the artery/vital etc as there is an equivalent of this for most locations in MA.

First of all neck, , this is a small area thats pretty full of high value objects. Also there's not much in there protecting them. Certainly when compared to the torso which has comparable injury multipliers except for cutting and crushing. More over it doesn't even get a knock down mod. I.e it's treated as vulnerable to injury as the torso except against ct & cr attacks.

This doesn't seem right, if nothing else a bullet/arrow/spear to the throat/neck would seem to me to be worse than one to the torso?

I'm not advocating a straight x4 brain hit multiplier, as I guess its possible to manage to miss the major blood vessels, airway, spinal column and cord etc, but I think the odds of doing all that are higher enough to warrant an extra +1 to all multipliers (and maybe making cutting x3).

If nothing else if a 4pt cutting attack on a St10 arm is enough to cripple it beyond use, what's that going to do to a neck?

Now the face, Now I can see that there's not actually much in the face that if its damaged it will immediately threaten your life (unlike the neck), my main issue is that there really isn't that much of the face in front of the really important stuff. Or put it this way a spear thrust to the face doesn't have to be very strong before its hitting the brain, top of the spinal chord or lots of blood vessels etc, etc. While you could argue that this is more a point for thrusting attacks, I'd say its true of cutting attacks as well because only a pretty superficial (i.e low damage roll) with a sword is going to stay just in the face and not go deeper. Consequently again I'd add an extra +1 to all multipliers, except corrosive which I'd keep at x1.5 and cr which I'd keep at x1.

Again if a 4pt hit from a sword can cripple an ST10 arm or a leg, what's that going to do swung into your face?

The face does at least have a hefty knockdown mod, which I guess you could argue is enough of a penalty in terms of the overall result of a combat given what happens the next round when you're -4 to defend.

Now I know sometimes the over penetration of torso rules from HT are quoted as something that makes neck and face hits comparatively worse. However I'd argue that is designed more to make large wounds to the torso more survivable rather then make such wounds to the neck and face less survivable.

One last thing I would probably also argue that the neck should -6 to hit and thus a harder target than the face because yes while the face is a more mobile target, the neck is smaller one and a more difficult one due to the flinching and reactions of the body (think how naturally you lower your chin or dip your shoulder, or otherwise retract it to protect it).

Anyway am I over thinking this, is this just a game balance thing (i'd argue the hit mods take care of that) and GURPS doesn't strike me as the kind of system where game balance overrules effect completely, otherwise why have locations at all.

Any thoughts?

Cheers

TD

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

Face gives a 1/6 chance of getting the brain with penetrating attacks. And enhanced knockdown which is a pretty big deal.

I think neck actually has more wounding modifiers than that? But I could be wrong. It does have nastier bleeding. And the spine.

(See Martial Arts for wounding rules enhancements.)
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

People get shot, stabbed, and punched in the face on a pretty regular basis. It's not lethal. Your face is very much like a crumple-zone for the "important" part of your head ie your brain.

A broken nose, crushed cheekbones, fractures around the sinuses, lost teeth, or even a broken jaw isn't going to kill you. It will make you miserable but that's different.

Similarly, getting shot in the face isn't (necessarily) a big deal. What's a big deal is having the bullet go through the face into the brain, but that's not guarenteed and only possible for attacks from the front to the rear - attacks from the side can pass entirely through your face without striking anything even remotely vital (through one cheek and out the other, for example). Even from the front, a bullet (or arrow) can go through the face and out the back of the head spending the entire time below the skull and to the side of the spine and never risking either. The arteries are more at risk from this sort of shot, but depending on your fat or muscle levels, there's a decent chance even the arteries will be missed.
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
People get shot, stabbed, and punched in the face on a pretty regular basis. It's not lethal. Your face is very much like a crumple-zone for the "important" part of your head ie your brain.

A broken nose, crushed cheekbones, fractures around the sinuses, lost teeth, or even a broken jaw isn't going to kill you. It will make you miserable but that's different.
It does suggest that it should be possible to scar the face for reduced appearance with enough damage though.

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No, and I never implied as such. But when you set aside chance of brain injury (which you have) and bleeding (which you have) and disfiguring or long term injury (which you have) all you have left as a difference is that getting punched in the face hurts more - which GURPS already covers by making it terribly easy to get stun/knockdown on the face.
Are there rules for disfiguring the face in 4th edition?
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:31 PM   #5
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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It does suggest that it should be possible to scar the face for reduced appearance with enough damage though.

Are there rules for disfiguring the face in 4th edition?
Critical head blow table, results 12 and 13, also potentially loosing an eye (See One Eye disadvantage) but that might just make you look dashing and mysterious.

Nothing more rigorous that I can find off the top of my head, but "attractiveness" is such a nebulous concept that it's hard to come up with hard-and-fast rules - it's also so heavily culture-bound that they'd never be generic.
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

One of my co-workers has a prominent ear-to-ear scar, as a memento from one of his extended series of very bad room-mates.

He was another case of "walked into the ER complaining loudly about the guy who did it", and he's got neither protective fat nor protective muscle - he's just skinny and stubborn.

The ears are of course another part of the face where getting them taken off in a fight really is just a flesh wound. It's not even a major impediment to your hearing, although if you wear glasses it's hugely inconvenient.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:31 AM   #7
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Critical head blow table, results 12 and 13, also potentially loosing an eye (See One Eye disadvantage) but that might just make you look dashing and mysterious.
Well the One Eye applies to the eye hit location like losing a nose or ear applies to the nose or ear hit location not the face hit location.
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Nothing more rigorous that I can find off the top of my head, but "attractiveness" is such a nebulous concept that it's hard to come up with hard-and-fast rules - it's also so heavily culture-bound that they'd never be generic.
But we aren't talking about "attractiveness" we're talking about scarring and mutilation. We aren't asking if a woman's beauty is improved by being Hollywood thin or 17th century Rubenesque, we're asking what effect does having half your teeth smashed out with a mace, or having one side of your face caved in (symmetry does seem to be a constant in beauty). Are there any cultures that find missing teeth and uncontrolled combat scars attractive?
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
If nothing else if a 3pt cutting attack on a St10 arm is enough to cripple it beyond use, what's that going to do to a neck?
That won't cripple an arm. 3 cutting with a 1.5x damage modifier deals only 4 damage (It rounds down). To cripple an arm, you have to do more than half the target's HP, which for a ST10 target is a 6-point injury (10HP/2 = 5, so "more than half" is 6+). That takes a 4-point cutting attack.

It's also a major wound, which means a hit to the face is forcing a knockdown/out roll at -5. Failure stuns, failure by 5 KOs. Even a single point of injury to the face forces a knockdown/out roll at the same odds as slicing off their arm. That seems like a good place for it, to me. A hit to the head that doesn't damage the neck or brain isn't going to do a lot of life-threatening damage (HP loss), but it's going to HURT.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

What makes the neck, specifically, a nasty target is several things:
  • The big one is that cutting, impaling, and piercing attacks cause bleeding rolls every 30 seconds, at -2, and it takes Surgery (not First Aid) to stop this; see Martial Arts, p. 138.
  • As well, a major wound there requires a roll on the Neck Wounds Table (Martial Arts, p. 138), which can ruin your whole life.
  • Finally, in the heat of combat, the neck has a 1 in 6 chance of a vein/artery hit for bonus damage from cutting, impaling, piercing, or tight-beam burning – and the same odds of a spine hit from crushing from behind.
The first two effects mostly matter outside combat, but are what makes neck injury scary in real life. The short-term effects of neck injury aren't the reason why you target the neck.
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:14 AM   #10
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Default Re: Face & Neck location damage multiplier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Face gives a 1/6 chance of getting the brain with penetrating attacks. And enhanced knockdown which is a pretty big deal.
True, but also true of the torso (1 in 6 chance of vitals hit), like I said that 1 in 6 chance doesn't really demonstrate a the dangers if getting hit in the face when it pretty much applies in some form or another to most locations. What that rule demonstrates is that there is no safe place to get hit were you can be sure to soak damage, i.e there's almost always a chance of something horrible happening to you.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I think neck actually has more wounding modifiers than that? But I could be wrong. It does have nastier bleeding. And the spine.

(See Martial Arts for wounding rules enhancements.)
I do use the bleeding rules, but even the faster stuff is not going ti have an effect on the time scale of most GURPS combat, however since it's actually reasonably difficult to die in seconds I guess all together it gives the desired effect.

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
People get shot, stabbed, and punched in the face on a pretty regular basis. It's not lethal.
And I'n not arguing for instant kills (or x4 brain hits) for getting hit in the face, but are you saying you have no preference between getting hit in the torso or the face for all of those?

are you saying that wounds to the face and neck are when all else is equal just as dangerous as hits to the torso?
However although I'm thinking of keeping the x1 mod for cr, to avoid fist fights ending in death after a few punches, and to show the crumple zone effect you mention. Cr damage covers such a wide range of damage sources.


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Your face is very much like a crumple-zone for the "important" part of your head ie your brain.
Its not that much of a crumple zone really, given that its mainly space and thin bones. Also pretty much anything behind the face is as important as the the brain by dint of being vital to the function of the brain. I.e teh picture on pg 399 infers that anything form the eyeline up is x4 bad, but teh bottom half of your head is neutral ground.

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
A broken nose, crushed cheekbones, fractures around the sinuses, lost teeth, or even a broken jaw isn't going to kill you. It will make you miserable but that's different.
OK but as I said those are all superficial wounds (in terms of they won't kill you), that given the knockdown mod give you that misery. That crumple zone is very

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Similarly, getting shot in the face isn't (necessarily) a big deal.
Well again see my last response to Ulzgoroth, I'm not arguing for a x4 brain mod, and I ask the same question to you would you really be as happy to take those hits to your face as to your torso (given that there also a 1 in 6 of getting a vital hit in the torso).

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
What's a big deal is having the bullet go through the face into the brain, but that's not guaranteed and only possible for attacks from the front to the rear
True but that direction of attack is going to be a lot of them.

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
- attacks from the side can pass entirely through your face without striking anything even remotely vital (through one cheek and out the other, for example).
And that's not going to be many of them. Also again they would be a superficial hit, think about how precise the difference is between a transverse slice through the face that stays in the 'crumple zone', and how small the difference is that would be needed to make it a lot worse.

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Even from the front, a bullet (or arrow) can go through the face and out the back of the head spending the entire time below the skull and to the side of the spine and never risking either.
There not actually much else it can hit, however that's probably an argument for treating anything that goes through the face as a neck hit rather than anything else (it still basically neck at that point).

look at this side on MRI look at what's behind the soft palette

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
The arteries are more at risk from this sort of shot, but depending on your fat or muscle levels, there's a decent chance even the arteries will be missed.
There's not a lot of fat or muscle in the head, and that my main point, the torso has plenty and more importantly what else it has is often not that deadly short term. This is not the case with the head and neck

Basically yes i agree you can get a hit to the face that passes through and doesn't hit something major (it exits the body before it gets chance) and yes people to survive getting shot in the face with bullets following the line of skull or getting lodged in the cavities etc. However in general I think you are lucky to get one of these results rather than unlucky not to get one. I.e the opposite from torso hits.

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
What makes the neck, specifically, a nasty target is several things:
  • The big one is that cutting, impaling, and piercing attacks cause bleeding rolls every 30 seconds, at -2, and it takes Surgery (not First Aid) to stop this; see Martial Arts, p. 138.
  • As well, a major wound there requires a roll on the Neck Wounds Table (Martial Arts, p. 138), which can ruin your whole life.
  • Finally, in the heat of combat, the neck has a 1 in 6 chance of a vein/artery hit for bonus damage from cutting, impaling, piercing, or tight-beam burning – and the same odds of a spine hit from crushing from behind.
The first two effects mostly matter outside combat, but are what makes neck injury scary in real life. The short-term effects of neck injury aren't the reason why you target the neck.
That's all fine but as you say they are longer term and take effect mainly outside combat (however so do a lot of wound effects). So leaving that asides are we in general saying that except in the case of ct & cr for the neck and cor for the face these areas are as susceptible to damage as the torso?

Basically a 3pt spear thrust is major wound to a St10 arm or leg rendering them useless, what do we think that look like in a neck or face.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 03-23-2013 at 02:45 AM.
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