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Old 04-18-2016, 08:03 PM   #51
(E)
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

DSCN* Stadium

Assumptions
- TL 8 End
- Salvage provides a reason to be in the city.
- 4 hectares within the stadium
- A whole city to source plants and seeds from.
- 1 or 2 generations since End
- either reasonable weather or the residents have managed to restore part of the municipal water system or put down a bore.
- sufficient feral animal populations or trading partners to keep the gene pool healthy.

Notes
- if hay is a possibility then keeping the animals inside for longer than 2 days in a siege situation is possible. It would also be a requirement if there was prolonged snow coverage in winter.
- The animals provide a source of manure for the gardens.
- high crop rotation
- a reasonable population might be 100 people without the use of a chemist/botanist. With access to the right chemical fertilizers/treatments doubling the population is possible
- the stadium served as a civil defence depot.
- Crops may be planted outside the stadium depending on the end. Shallow rooted crops would work best.

Description
The old stadium has seen serious renovation in recent years to meet the requirements of a post apocalyptic population. Most of the entrances have been concreted over and many fire escape bylaws have been violated to improve security. You are fairly sure that lookout tower wouldn't be up to code either. What was the car park is now a grass covered field with fruit trees growing in small fenced off areas.

Crops
The interior of the stadium has been completely devoted to gardens including the seating area. Primarily potatoes and high yielding garden varieties. Vines and climbers are used to take advantage of the vertical services and use as much of the available light as possible. Some mushrooms are grown inside the structure.

Livestock
Inside the stadium chickens, guinea pigs, worms and fish are farmed. These animals are mainly used as a means to store surplus food.

Goats and cattle are kept as well, every morning they are taken out to graze on the grasses that dominate the previously sealed surfaces of the city and are returned at night. In case of emergency they can be fed for a day or two with the green matter from the crops but after that they will need to be culled. This green matter also serves as a valuable supplimentary food source for the animals. 60 to 80 goats and 12 to 14 cattle. Main benefit is dairy, up to 120 liters of milk per day(for 3-9 months of the year depending on climate).

Requirements
- Potassium, sulphur and to a lesser extent nitrogen
- Equipment suitable for TL4-8 farming
- Food preservation

Produces
- cheese and dairy
- range of vegetables
- sufficient surplus to maintain specialists/scavengers

Cuisine
- Best, steak with baked potatoes, blue cheese, garden vegetables and butter.
- Typical, potatoes, eggs and garden vegetables
- Desperation, dried beans and worms


*dynanmic sounding corporate name
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Old 04-19-2016, 12:11 AM   #52
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Location: Kenai, Alaska
Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Hey (E), I was browsing through some survival sites looking for AtE inspiration and I stumbled across this neat little thing. http://www.thereadystore.com/seedsafetm-bundle

Thoughts on the seed selection or the package in general?
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Old 04-19-2016, 01:13 AM   #53
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuteman37 View Post
Hey (E), I was browsing through some survival sites looking for AtE inspiration and I stumbled across this neat little thing. http://www.thereadystore.com/seedsafetm-bundle

Thoughts on the seed selection or the package in general?
All the IP address' I can use to easily browse to the site are blocked.
NZ must be listed as a dangerous foreign power ;)

Edit
Lifespan of the seeds might be an issue, lifespan would be 5 years ish for most seeds depending on many variables. There is a commercial seed industry in NZ that supplies Europe so the seed is as fresh as possible. Seeds that suit the location and climate that they are to be planted in are better than a general range. Non hybrids are good if you want your own seed. A living garden is probably the best thing to have, even a small one. You get fresh seeds and skills that way.
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Old 04-19-2016, 06:41 PM   #54
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Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Bit of a tangent but this will make it easier for anyone who is interested to make some broad calculations regarding livestock. I may also refer to it as it makes descriptions easier (faster)

Anyone interested in throwing out ideas regarding the social structures that may develop in these communities? Feel free not my area of expertise.

Measuring livestock

Stock units are the old standard for measuring the amount of animals a pasture system can maintain. Selected and simplified for gaming use.
- 1 lactating ewe equals 1 stock unit.
- other sheep and goats average 0.75 stock units
- Beef cattle average 5 stock units
- Lactating dairy cattle 6-9 stock units
- Deer 1.9 stock units
- Goats 0.8 stock units

Land quality
TL 7 - 8
- Poor fertility hard hill country 2-6 stock units per hectare
- Cold poor fertility hard hill country 1-3 stock units a hectare
- high fertility flat with irrigation 14+ stock units a hectare.
- guesstimate of a managed pasture in AtE with stock and crop rotation 6 stock units per hectare on goodish country.

Medicine and genetics cover
- stock losses, potentially large in warm wet climates
- condition and speed of weight gain.
- reproduction percentages.
- other yields, milk wool etc.

Edit
This is with a "farm" system not a "ranch" system. Reducing the size of the paddocks and increasing the frequency of the stock shifts can improve production by 50% in temperate conditions as tougher (slower growing and harder to digest) grasses become less dominant. This process takes more than a year though but improvements can be seen in as soon as the first hard grazing is recovered from.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:15 PM   #55
evileeyore
 
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Hey (E), can you do something aimed at "And then all the bees died" type of ATE agriculture? Like what plants would survive a beepocalypse, what could be encouraged to survive on other pollinators, what other pollinators there are, etc?

Or is this too large of topic for a forum post?
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:22 PM   #56
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Hey (E), can you do something aimed at "And then all the bees died" type of ATE agriculture? Like what plants would survive a beepocalypse, what could be encouraged to survive on other pollinators, what other pollinators there are, etc?

Or is this too large of topic for a forum post?
It's a fairly big topic. Give me some more detail on the End you have in mind and I'll have a shot at it.

First thoughts, crop rotation relies on legumes which rely on bees (solitary, bumble or honey). This knocks low tech farming a bit

Crop type legumes can be pollinated by hand, pasture legumes less so.

The more modern the system the better it can handle the loss of bees.

Fruit trees would get smaller for hand pollination.

Wild and feral plants take the hit

Staples are not as reliant on bees.

I think the numbers (from memory) are a 25% increase in labour requirements for the crops that can be pollinated by hand.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:28 AM   #57
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Quote:
Originally Posted by (E) View Post
It's a fairly big topic. Give me some more detail on the End you have in mind and I'll have a shot at it.
No specific end, just some of the stuff you "off the cuff" posted actually.

Like about legumes and hand-pollinating (which i didn't know existed).

Quote:
I think the numbers (from memory) are a 25% increase in labour requirements for the crops that can be pollinated by hand.
See? Like this. Everything I read (granted I never researched deeper than the newspapers that occasionally cried doom about it) "the coming beepocalyspe*" is that most plants wouldn't make it and everything would die... which always sounded a bit far-fetched to me.




* Which I haven't seen in print in almost a decade now, but it was pretty "OH NOES" there for awhile.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:51 AM   #58
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Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Quote:
Originally Posted by (E) View Post
Bit of a tangent but this will make it easier for anyone who is interested to make some broad calculations regarding livestock. I may also refer to it as it makes descriptions easier (faster)

(SNIP)
This is interesting, and very different from how it's done, around here.

Here, the basic unit of livestock is the "cattle unit" or "animal unit" and that's equivalent to a beef cow (not a dairy cow). It gets used to measure how much feed or acreage is needed to support livestock of all sorts. The other one mostly used is "conversion ratio" -- how much feed it takes to create meat for the market, on an animal that weighs about a half-ton (455 kg, or so).

I know a pig is about a quarter of an animal unit, and sheep are about a fifth. A horse is a bit more, IIRC.

Interestingly, it takes about 1.25 acres per month per AU in the rich grazing areas of the Midwest, the Old South, or the Pacific Northwest (The Willamette Valley can graze 10 months of the year). Here in Colorado, on the semi-arid short-grass prairie, it can take five times that. It's only economical because we have so much empty land, here, that's so cheap.

Ranches are huge, in the Rocky Mountain West, because they have to be, really. The only good grazing is found in the piedmont areas, close to the mountains, where there's a fair amount of water.

(More than 80 percent of all the water used in the Rocky Mountain West goes to irrigate agriculture or water livestock. Municipal water supplies use about 3-5 percent, depending on state. The rest gets taken for ecological preservation or other uses.)

If I remember right, a beef steer from a good breed converts fodder to weight at about 8:1. Smaller animals do it more efficiently, and pigs and goats can live on scraps. Poultry is the most efficient, I think, although I don't know about fish.

(Man, I learned a lot about this stuff, when I worked out at the Fort Morgan Times -- and I wasn't even the Farm Editor. Although, I did do a special section on the Morgan County Fair, every year, and that meant I talked to the 4-H people and the extension agents and the high school agriculture economics teachers, a lot.)
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:55 PM   #59
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Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshiggins View Post
This is interesting, and very different from how it's done, around here.
Snip
It's a bit of change in orientation between the two systems, one seems based off "I have some land, what will you pay for it?" And the other is "I have some animals, what do you want for grazing them"

The closest equivalent around here would be dry matter per hectare calculations though they are starting to be superseded by various metabolic calculations.

Every country has their own way of calculating things, I had a look at the American system when the Oregon rancher thing was going on out of curiosity about how subsidized or not the system was and then got looking at the Australian system, Canadian, Argentinian. . . .

The other big calculations are how fast animals gain weight. For beef a good grass system might produce a kg per day weight gain. A good feed lot might do 5 times that. Anyway it is far to easy to digress.

When calculating the feed conversion of meat animals the other major factor to include is carcass yield (call it 50% for game terms, but generally higher in non Ruminant animals). From memory the calculation for pork I ended up with for Grey Island was 400kgs of food to produce a 70kg carcass.

You did remind me that I have to be more specific in some of these posts though. That said my eyeball of the numbers seemed to fit.

Next example is taking a while, I'm trying to figure out a bit more detail for a homestead and some chemistry to go with it.
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Old 04-21-2016, 01:09 AM   #60
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Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: [ATE] Farming example

Portland Quarry

A reasonably defensible location of about 50 hectares. Already partially concealed to avoid environmental complaints.

Resources
- Limestone quarry, heavy machinery, fuel reserve, workshop, sheds
- Concrete factory, has most of the amenities of a small town including, workshops, sheds, large stocks of coal, concrete, aggregates, wood chip.
- Transport hub (road, water, rail)
- Dry stock farm, sufficient hay and feed to supply 1000 stock units for a year. 25 tonnes of urea fertilizer.
- Forestry, small pine semi failed crop due to failure to get sufficient depth for roots.
- Fresh water spring, falling a height of 30m
- Landfill, compost, methane plant
- Woodchip plant.

Assumptions
- TL8-9 End
- The type of End means no feral populations of farm animals.
- Maybe a zombie End
- Climate not too hostile
- Two generations after the End

Notes
The original fuel and explosive supplies where used to improve the locations fortifications and to create the start of the gardens. Having quarry sized machinery helped, aside from building the defenses they moved enough high quality earth/compost for 5000 m2 of gardens and 50,000 m2 of paddocks, one weeks work 8 hours a day 2 trucks and a loader. Additional wood chip was moved as well.
- The sparse soil is extremely alkaline and poor soil structure makes drought a hazard
- Two hills, each with a good view of the other helps with the defenses.
- Terraced terrain with bunds above the rock faces.
- A covered conveyor belt runs from the rock crusher at the quarry to the cement works.
- AtE while lacking in some high tech infrastructure only has to maintain a small population so large stockpiles can last a long time.
- The nitrogen would be kept in reserve for droughts and explosive manufacturing.
- Nitrogen specifically improves plant growth rates so it can be applied during dry weather so when it does rain plants grow fast enough to take full benefit.
- With low soil depth droughts may be an issue depending on the exact climate.
- This combination of resources exists, lookup Portland in NZ for confirmation or a map/satellite image. Here
- Potassium would be relatively common in the local marine sediment (presumption)
- Phosphorus is sourced from animal bones (possibly in great supply depending on end) or from fish.
- Additional Nitrogen is reserved for droughts and there is a stockpile.
- Other trace elements for plant life are assumed to be present in sufficient quantities in the organic matter brought in.
- No hardwood inside the quarry perimeter so smoked food would require a trip out to get hardwoods.
- Insufficient soil depth for productive fruit trees unless there was a specific requirement.
- Only the quarry itself is included in the defenses.

Description

The view from the old highway doesn't give much away, you have to negotiate several hundred meters of gorse and blackberry before you get a hint that there is a community on the hill. Getting to the entrance is the next challenge, exposed cliffs of limestone confront you almost the whole way around. A narrow ledge of rock leads to a deep ditch, the locals lower the steel drawbridge to let you in. You still have to walk along a narrow cut between two tall limestone faces before turning a corner and encountering another gate. The area you enter is a man made hollow surrounded by high cliffs. Browning pasture is dotted with animals and on the inner edges of the two hills you can make out gardens, greenhouses and buildings on the white edged ledges.

Building up soil/growing medium

In this instance there is a bare surface start and a growing medium needs to be introduced to the limestone base. When fuel was available soil, compost and wood chip was moved in. Also used to build up the soil was housing cattle in a feed pad at least some of the time. This broke up the surface and introduced manure and plant matter to the limestone. Pine wood chip is slightly acidic when fresh so this will help, Pampas can used as poor compost and it is available. The other thing is gypsum which is used in concrete manufacturing contains sulfur and to extract this sulfur you need heat, a sealed container and CO2. Sulfur is the main nutrient introduced to soil to make it more acid, i.e counteract the lime. This makes the location a lot more viable.

Gardens
- Trench greenhouses, these serve to extend the growing season. In colder climates they would be more prevalent.
- Parsnips, Beans, Cabbages, (including red cabbage as it can be used in place of litmus paper), Garlic are common vegetables as the are better suited to alkaline soils.
- The original half hectare of good soil imported into the quarry would be the location of serial crops. Used in a multiple animal, multiple crop rotation. Plants the cannot tolerate the alkaline soil of the rest of the quarry would be planted here. Potatoes, "seed maintenance" crops, high yielding garden varieties. After 40 years the productive area has doubled to one hectare of high productive soil. A similar area of gardens is less productive.
- A few high yielding fruit trees, enough for alcohol production or other specific or perceived needs. Apples, plums, grapes, citrus, peaches.
- Mushrooms are certainly possible but not included in this particular write up.

Herb and utility garden
Combinations of well drained and carefully built up soils. Plants include myrtle, rosemary, olives, hemp, marijuana, poppies, willow, prickly pear, black sage, yaka, garlic, bamboo.

Crops
Barley, less than a hectare, one crop a year, maybe a tonne.
Fodder, turnip, kale, plantain, clover.

Livestock
Grazing system
Pampas grass while poor quality feed can sustain cattle, it can grow on almost straight limestone. This plus the hay was the start of the system. Over time the soil quality has improved through animal action, management and chemistry.
Lower quality grazing, very well subdivided (50% improvement in stocking rate)
45 hectares equals about 40 sheep and 12 cattle as well as geese and turkeys. To reduce inbreeding there are large numbers of bulls and rams retained reducing reproduction percentages. 4 cattle and 40 sheep are slaughtered for food per annum. Using two grazing species of animals allows stock rotation reducing parasites and improving pasture utilization. Turkeys are useful for reducing insect pests and parasites. Geese act as an additional security measure. A more optimistic stocking rate could be 50% higher after 40 years of work.

Other livestock
Pigs, 3 tonnes of pork, primarily for food storage
Chickens,
Ducks,

Population
Up to 80-90 people.

Skills present
Explosives
Chemistry
Engineering
Farming
Animal handling

Requirements/wants
- Fuels
- Cereals
- Nitrogen
- Plastics
- Glass
- Containers


Produces

- Dairy, meat, vegetables, some cereal, wool, leather.
- Sulfur, sulfuric acid, plaster of paris, quicklime, nitric acid, potassium hydroxide.
- Alcohol, ether, vinegar, soap, paper, ink
- Hydroelectric power, caustic soda
- Aspirin
- Electricity from methane (depending on duration of landfill)
- Coal gas, coal derivatives, (Lignite coal base)
- Explosives, fuel nitrate, black powder, gun cotton, basic rocket fuel, chemical and electric detonators.
- Worked metal
- Antiseptics, insect repellent, head ache remedy, degreaser, antibacterials, sun screen
- Refined nitrates, methanol
- Cast Aluminium

Yet to be written
- Smaller homestead
- Depopulated world
- Under the trees again
- More Bee-pocalypse
- Rebuilding from feral stock
- Just after the End
- Peasant farming with whats left
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