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Old 07-14-2016, 02:43 PM   #81
safisher
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Default Re: Swords and plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I'd be happy to be proven wrong, however.
From the dissertation I cited earlier:

John of Winterthur described the appeal of the halberd when he explained what Duke Leopold was up against at Morgarten. He writes: “Also the Swiss have in their hands death weapons, which have been called in popular speech ‘Helnbarten,’ and are very frightful. These slice like a razor and slash into pieces such strongly armed opponents.”

Razor, slash. Hmm.

And just the next paragraph, it says:

"So, the iron halberd was the first versatile pole-weapon that put the foot soldier at a distinct advantage over the knight: it could crack through armor. An expressly offensive weapon, its value, then, was that it significantly decreased the protective appeal of plate armor. While it also left the halberdier vulnerable—it had to be carried with both hands, so those who wielded it had to give up the shield—its effectiveness was apparently worth it, especially for footsoldiers like the Swiss, who were lightly armed anyway."

You can equivocate all you want. But here is a scholar making the claim. Take it or leave it.

What we don't have is a scholar saying they couldn't do this.

In fact here's a small snippet to contrary:

John Clements, Medieval Swordsmanship:
"Quite common were heavy axes, halberds, and pole-axes with blade heads especially able to dent, gash, or pierce heavier armor."

James C. Bradford, International Encyclopedia of Military History
"Axes, flanged maces, and the pollaxe, (a combination of axe-head, hammer, and spike) was developed to attack and defeat armor by hacking and crushing it."

Ewart Oakeshott, A Knight and His Armor
"In a battle at Courtrai in Flanders (1302), the halberd was wielded by burly Flemish townsmen who wiped out a large and splendidly equipped force of French knights."

Emily Sebastian, Technology of the Medieval and Early Modern Worlds
"The halberd was a specialized weapon for fighting armored men-at-arms and penetrating knightly armor...the halberd could penetrate the best plate armor, allowing infantrymen to inflict heavy casualties on their mounted opponents"

Larry H. Addington, The Patterns of War Through the Eighteenth Century
"the axe-like halberd, which could cleave through armor and flesh alike"

Trevor Nevitt Dupuy, The Evolution of Weapons and Warfare
"the halberd ... It could cleave through helmet and armor, sever a sword blade, or fell a horse with a blow."

Charles Oman, A History of the Art of War in the Middle Ages: 1278-1485 A.D
"The halberd...swung by strong arms it could cleave helmets and plate-armour as no sword could do."

These are, of course, some of the most important names in the study of weapons armor. They seem convinced that these weapons did penetrate armor.

Quote:
Second-hand descriptions of things like fechtbuchs, as I don't have ready access to source materials. I may be able to estimate things from physics*
We don't need physics, all we need is historical evidence. We have that. It's much more accurate than trying to rebuild the circumstances through theory alone.

Quote:
This may be useful, but fails to look at the specific issue of the thread - cutting through plate armor (technically, swords cutting through plate, but we got away from swords pretty early on).
The sources clearly denotes cutting through plate with halberds.

Quote:
All that said, the text certainly does imply that cutting weapons (or at least halberds and similar) are more effective against armor than LT implies.
Low-Tech make it functionally impossible. Which does not jive with historical sources.

Quote:
We seem to be having a communication issue. I don't think anyone is suggesting that these weapons were never used against armor, nor is anyone suggesting that these weapons were rendered useless by armor. The claim is that a cutting surface - such as the axe head on a halberd - is nearly incapable of actually cutting through steel plate to get to the wearer's flesh.
It might apply to swords, but I think even that is situational -- what sword, where, what armor, what thickness, etc. It absolutely does not apply to axes and heavy pole weapons.

Quote:
I don't think this was ever in question, the question was if swing cutting weapons ever cut through plate armor on the battlefield.
Certainly the wording and rules in LT make that claim. I'm not the only one to think this.
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Last edited by safisher; 07-14-2016 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 07-14-2016, 02:51 PM   #82
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
http://www.allenantiques.com/Breastp...s%20Study.html

Armor measured here ranges from 28 mils (750 microns) - to 285 mils, or about 7,200 microns. So which "historical armor" are *you* talking about, since it varies by 10x in thickness for those seven breastplates measured, and can vary within the breastplate itself by by a factor of 2-4?
...
Good gravy. I knew plate armor could be thin and function. But that starting thickness is literally thinner than paper. That also impresses upon me just how uniform steel had to be to avoid slight imperfections causing tearing when "smooshing" it that thin.
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Old 07-14-2016, 02:54 PM   #83
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Default Re: Swords and plate

Polearms always sounded like me swinging a light couch at someone. Sure, I can do it, and if it hit, you'd go DOWN. But not the most versatile of weapons for most gaming situations of sudden short skirmishses.
(Some couches really are light enough to swing, I know from silly experiments. that weren't even when I "hulked" out from anxiety.)
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Old 07-14-2016, 03:12 PM   #84
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Good gravy. I knew plate armor could be thin and function. But that starting thickness is literally thinner than paper. That also impresses upon me just how uniform steel had to be to avoid slight imperfections causing tearing when "smooshing" it that thin.
Paper is about 100microns, so it's a bit thicker than that. It is, however, very, very thin, no matter how, um, you slice it. :-)

0.028" steel is 23-gauge.
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Old 07-14-2016, 03:18 PM   #85
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
"So, the iron halberd was the first versatile pole-weapon that put the foot soldier at a distinct advantage over the knight: it could crack through armor.
Notably, this does not mention cutting in any way. There is some reason to class axes and halberds as primarily impact weapons against armor.
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Originally Posted by safisher View Post
An expressly offensive weapon, its value, then, was that it significantly decreased the protective appeal of plate armor. While it also left the halberdier vulnerable—it had to be carried with both hands, so those who wielded it had to give up the shield—its effectiveness was apparently worth it, especially for footsoldiers like the Swiss, who were lightly armed anyway."
Judging by some quick searches for images of Swiss armor, they wore half-plate. There is a long history of killing cavalry with pole weapons, it's quite likely that the distinctive benefit of the halberdier wasn't that they could kill cavalry, it was that they could do so while having enough armor to withstand archers and sword and shield infantry.

Part of the problem here is that we don't have any really functional armor damage rules. If you damage a suit of armor by enough to create a 2" gash in the armor, the hit that opened that gash will probably not even reach flesh, let alone cause any meaningful damage, but it will both weaken the armor and introduce a gap that can be penetrated, so subsequent blows will be more dangerous.
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Old 07-14-2016, 03:24 PM   #86
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Default Re: Swords and plate

I remember 20ga steel LARP armor fit in the category of 'people can adjust fit by bending in hand'

How do electric shears work? I remember my electric shears could cut 14ga mild steel like it wasn't there, but I would guess they work on a different method than halberds?
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Old 07-14-2016, 03:35 PM   #87
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Default Re: Swords and plate

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
I remember 20ga steel LARP armor fit in the category of 'people can adjust fit by bending in hand'

How do electric shears work? I remember my electric shears could cut 14ga mild steel like it wasn't there, but I would guess they work on a different method than halberds?
Ridiculously high mechanical pressure from both sides, perfectly set up to maximize shear stress. Definitely not the same thing as an axe hit. Also, you can see lots of images/videos/whatever of swords cutting through metal sheet lengthwise - but that's a hit along the thin part, not the face. Once you notch the metal, it's a LOT easier to keep damaging it. You see that with Thor (the guy in Shawn's axe/car video - just looks like a Thor to me) continuing to lengthen the initial gash he made.
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Old 07-14-2016, 03:35 PM   #88
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Default Re: Swords and plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
]Notably, this does not mention cutting in any way. There is some reason to class axes and halberds as primarily impact weapons against armor.
The primary source, and the many I have added upthread recently from other historians make it clear they cut through armor, even plate.

Here's another anecdote:
Jim Bradbury, The Medieval Siege
"Charles [the Bold] to battle at Nancy, where he was killed. His naked body was identified two days later in the frozen mud, half eaten by wolves, his helmet and head split by a Swiss halberd."

Michael Stephenson, The Last Full Measure: How Soldiers Die in Battle
"the Swiss infantry, “slashing and striking with their terrible halberds, shearing through helms,”

Quote:
Part of the problem here is that we don't have any really functional armor damage rules. If you damage a suit of armor by enough to create a 2" gash in the armor, the hit that opened that gash will probably not even reach flesh, let alone cause any meaningful damage, but it will both weaken the armor and introduce a gap that can be penetrated, so subsequent blows will be more dangerous.
Nicely put. Agreed. Every effective blow against plate will have some chance of denting it, reducing it's DR. It might be semi-ablative in theory, but that seems overly harsh.

If I were to guess, I suspect that pollaxe and halberd were useful because they gave you the ability to pierce and bash away at the target, and that the heavy armor gave you such protection that it was small wounds, comparatively that did you in. I suspect, also that a full force, overhead smash would be a killing blow, but you couldn't always get that in until you had knocked the guy down. Thus, I think it would be hard to present these weapons as akin to modern fencing movements -- they were too slow and sluggish for that. You weren't dancing around tapping at each other's sword blades. You were bashing and flailing, probably poking a high percentage of the time, until your guy stumbled and was dazed, and then you delivered the kill shot. That's my guess, anyway, from reading some of the manuals.
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Last edited by safisher; 07-14-2016 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 07-14-2016, 03:41 PM   #89
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I've tried the armor damage rules from Low Tech . . . they make plate armor turn into expensive confetti very very quickly
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Old 07-14-2016, 11:07 PM   #90
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Default Re: Swords and plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Paper is about 100microns, so it's a bit thicker than that. It is, however, very, very thin, no matter how, um, you slice it. :-)

0.028" steel is 23-gauge.
That'll teach me to "Google", read, and post quickly without verifying before leaving. Or it would if I had a good memory.
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