Revolver, extra attack, dual weapon attack and rapid attack

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Penalties for the total number of shots fired in the turn? Fair enough I guess - I don't have Gun Fu.

Penalties on all attacks during that turn, yes. I am not sure what you mean by "for the total number of shots" though.

It says, " A gunman can use High-Speed Shooting (p. 11) to improve RoF here. In that case, divide the enhanced RoF according to the rules above. Penalties for RoF-boosting tricks affect all shots taken with a gun being fired this way."

So that is quite clear that the thumbing penalty applies to both shots.

Not so much if you're not assuming the semi-auto rapid striker is firing no more than RoF shots in the turn. Which I was not. By exactly the same logic as above, it seems to me that if one attack is point-and-up-to-three-trigger-pulls, two attacks is all of that twice.

If you are fast firing the semi-auto at RoF 6 you have that penalty to both attacks too.

Which again makes sense to me, because you are pulling the trigger six times in one turn, which is harder than pulling it three times. Pointing it at two different targets while you do this shouldn't make it easier than if you shot with RoF 6 at a single target.

With the revolver it seems to me that thumbing is hard, you have to thumb in order to shoot again, so it should be harder.

Anyway, the rules are clear here.

Are they? Cocking the gun is part of making the attack normally. You don't pay for Thumbing when you want to fire on two consecutive turns. When you buy a melee Rapid Strike you get two attacks, no hidden fees.

Thumbing isn't cocking. It's twice as fast as normal cocking.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Penalties on all attacks during that turn, yes. I am not sure what you mean by "for the total number of shots" though.

It says, " A gunman can use High-Speed Shooting (p. 11) to improve RoF here. In that case, divide the enhanced RoF according to the rules above. Penalties for RoF-boosting tricks affect all shots taken with a gun being fired this way."

So that is quite clear that the thumbing penalty applies to both shots.

The point in question, as has been quite consistent in my posts on this, is what RoF you're counting.

I believe that what you're saying is that Gun Fu actually wrote out that you have to use quick firing technique penalties based on the total shots fired in the turn regardless of how many separate attacks those shots were.

I continue to not think that's a good rule, but would like to verify that it in fact is one.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you are fast firing the semi-auto at RoF 6 you have that penalty to both attacks too.

Which again makes sense to me, because you are pulling the trigger six times in one turn, which is harder than pulling it three times. Pointing it at two different targets while you do this shouldn't make it easier than if you shot with RoF 6 at a single target.

But it wouldn't. Rapid Strike has a higher penalty than Fast-Firing and much higher than Thumbing.

I don't get why it's harder to perform two full-scale attacks in a second with guns than melee weapons, and especially why a semi-auto suffers more in doing so than a single-action revolver.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I believe that what you're saying is that Gun Fu actually wrote out that you have to use quick firing technique penalties based on the total shots fired in the turn regardless of how many separate attacks those shots were.

I don't see why "total shots" is important here. It only counts per weapon, you don't take penalties based on shots you fire with another weapon. The rule is simpler than you seem to be making it, if you use any of the methods of increasing your RoF listed under High-Speed Shooting those penalties apply to all attacks with that weapon on that turn. That's all.

I continue to not think that's a good rule, but would like to verify that it in fact is one.

I quoted you the exact text, so yes?

But it wouldn't. Rapid Strike has a higher penalty than Fast-Firing and much higher than Thumbing.

Yes, and that penalty is presumably for engaging two targets (or the same target twice). It isn't for making the gun work faster.

If you are correct, then you for some reason shooting twice at the same target one way has penalties for thumbing and suffers Rcl and doing it the other way allows you to thumb for free (and doesn't account for your practice at thumbing), and ignores Rcl. That doesn't seem right.

You still have to thumb it, rapid strike doesn't slow down time and let you cock it in a more orthodox fashion.

I don't get why it's harder to perform two full-scale attacks in a second with guns than melee weapons

Most melee tricks apply to both rolls too, so this seems roughly consistent.

and especially why a semi-auto suffers more in doing so than a single-action revolver.

They don't. You can shoot twice with a seni-auto with no penalty at all.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't see why "total shots" is important here. It only counts per weapon, you don't take penalties based on shots you fire with another weapon. The rule is simpler than you seem to be making it, if you use any of the methods of increasing your RoF listed under High-Speed Shooting those penalties apply to all attacks with that weapon on that turn. That's all.

I quoted you the exact text, so yes?

You've successfully created a great deal of uncertainty about the meaning of the text you quoted.

Total shots is a vital point because when you make a rapid strike with a gun there are three potentially different values that are all 'RoF'. There's the RoF for the first attack, the RoF for the second, and the total RoF combining them. That third 'RoF' (the total) seems to be the only one you're acknowledging at all, but the fact that you don't seem to recognize the question makes it impossible to be sure.

At no point has there been any question about what weapon penalties apply to. Only what RoF determines those penalties.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Yes, and that penalty is presumably for engaging two targets (or the same target twice). It isn't for making the gun work faster.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Most melee tricks apply to both rolls too, so this seems roughly consistent.

But for some reason making the weapon work faster only counts as a 'trick' if it's a gun?

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you are correct, then you for some reason shooting twice at the same target one way has penalties for thumbing and suffers Rcl and doing it the other way allows you to thumb for free (and doesn't account for your practice at thumbing), and ignores Rcl. That doesn't seem right.

If by 'for free' you mean 'at a -6 penalty to both attacks'. If your gun has Rcl 4 your roll to hit with each of the shots as a Rapid Strike would be the same as your roll to hit with both of them as a single attack using Thumbing. I'm not seeing the problem you're trying to indicate.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You still have to thumb it, rapid strike doesn't slow down time and let you cock it in a more orthodox fashion.

Rapid Strike involves doing stuff faster. Re-cocking is a matter of doing stuff, not of passing time.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

They don't. You can shoot twice with a seni-auto with no penalty at all.

Yes, but that's irrelevant since the full semi-auto attack is RoF 3, not RoF 1. So "two full-scale attacks" for such a weapon would be six shots all told.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Total shots is a vital point because when you make a rapid strike with a gun there are three potentially different values that are all 'RoF'. There's the RoF for the first attack, the RoF for the second, and the total RoF combining them. That third 'RoF' (the total) seems to be the only one you're acknowledging at all, but the fact that you don't seem to recognize the question makes it impossible to be sure.

There's just one RoF statistic. You can increase it or whatever with the tricks we are talking about and split it between attacks, but you still have just the one RoF for the turn. I think the rules are pretty clear there, too.

At no point has there been any question about what weapon penalties apply to.

You keep bringing up "total number of shots" which isn't a phrase that appears in the rules at all and you didn't say that it was for one weapon, so I wasn't sure what you are talking about. There's also the possibility that you don't fire all your RoF, so what matters is if you have a penalty from doing something to raise your RoF not how many shots you actually shoot.

Only what RoF determines those penalties.

The RoF, there's only one. You can shoot up to so many rounds per second. It's on the weapon table under "RoF". That one.

But for some reason making the weapon work faster only counts as a 'trick' if it's a gun?

Well it's even worse for bows (which use the Quick Shooting rules apply) and crossbows (for which no Rapid Strike option exists).

If by 'for free' you mean 'at a -6 penalty to both attacks'. If your gun has Rcl 4 your roll to hit with each of the shots as a Rapid Strike would be the same as your roll to hit with both of them as a single attack using Thumbing. I'm not seeing the problem you're trying to indicate.

If I pull the trigger twice on a seni-auto I can Rapid-Strike at -6 and I don't have to do anything special to do that. I can't just pull the trigger on a single action twice, I have to do something with the hammer, and none of those things are especially easy to do fast.

Rapid Strike involves doing stuff faster. Re-cocking is a matter of doing stuff, not of passing time.

Rapid Strike for a weapon that already has RoF 2+ doesn't involve cycling the action any faster than normal. Rapid Strike for a single action revolver requires that you thumb it, not recock conventionally.

Yes, but that's irrelevant since the full semi-auto attack is RoF 3, not RoF 1. So "two full-scale attacks" for such a weapon would be six shots all told.

It isn't irrelevant because there's a time component. That's RoF 3 per one second. A single action has RoF 1 per one second. Shooting twice with a seni-auto isn't shooting the weapon twice as fast as it is designed to be fired.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

....

But for some reason making the weapon work faster only counts as a 'trick' if it's a gun?...

I think the rationale behind thumbing and fast firing being specific tricks is that they are specific to the types of guns in question as opposed to the general rapid strike rules. So these are specific tricks possible for those guns that work by exploiting how those weapons specifically work.

Direct comparison to other attacks and increasing the speeds of other attacks are moot, because other attacks are different with weapons that work sufficiently differently fro GURPS to differentiate in this area. Of course other attacks can attack faster than 'normal/usual' in different ways, bows can fast draw their arrows, bows can even fire several arrows at once to increase their rate of attack in terms of launched arrow and so on. Swords can buy off attacking faster by running a combination attack or just by rapid strike rules.

i.e. there is no GURPS rule for the equivalent of "thumbing" or faster than usual trigger pulling a sword or bow, because swords and bows just don't attack in that manner and so don't "thumb", (even if they can do other things that manifest with different rules)

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

...

Rapid Strike involves doing stuff faster. Re-cocking is a matter of doing stuff, not of passing time....

But doing stuff takes time? Thumbing is just a method for cycling your gun faster than the usual method. (Thumbing while keeping you trigger pulled and thus controlling your ROF by thumbing and not trigger pulling for instance, and I think you can do the same with some slide actions keeping the trigger pulled and working the slide?)

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The RoF, there's only one. You can shoot up to so many rounds per second. It's on the weapon table under "RoF". That one.

I'm afraid that it's my recollection of Kromm discussing this that "ROF" is how many shots you get per attack and not second.

I know that there are physical limits to how fast the action of a gun will cycle but for a semi-auto that number is around 10 rounds per second. Barring specific guns with burst fire traits and/or limiters, a controlled ROF 3 in Gurps is a limit of the human holding the gun and not the gun itself. If this wasn't true Fast-Firing for increased ROF with increased penalties would not be an option.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I'm afraid that it's my recollection of Kromm discussing this that "ROF" is how many shots you get per attack and not second.

I know that there are physical limits to how fast the action of a gun will cycle but for a semi-auto that number is around 10 rounds per second. Barring specific guns with burst fire traits and/or limiters, a controlled ROF 3 in Gurps is a limit of the human holding the gun and not the gun itself. If this wasn't true Fast-Firing for increased ROF with increased penalties would not be an option.

Right but Sir Pudding was responding to the question:

"Only what RoF determines those penalties."

In reference to the various tricks like fast firing for increasing Rof, the RoF in question for determining those penalties is the RoF stat.


But you're right the definition of Rof is:

"The maximum
number of shots an ordinary
shooter can fire in a one-second turn." (Characters pg270)

Which does infer the limitation is the shooter not the gun

However in Tactical shooting* it says:

"Ranged Rapid Strike: Requires a ready gun with
RoF 2+. This variant of the Rapid Strike (p. B370) lets
you use a single gun to make two attacks, each at an
extra -6. To buy off the -6, learn Quick-Shot (p. 45).
You must divide your gun’s RoF between the two
attacks; use the shots fired for each attack to calculate
the rapid-fire bonus."

As you say some gun's Rof rating are not based on the mechanical maximum Rof (SA guns) a fact that those various thumbing etc tricks leverage.

But well like you say some are based on mechanical limits, even if I took -18 on three attacks I don't think I could fire 39 rounds out of an normal M16 in a second at a rate of 2,340 rpm?


*I think Gun-fu has the same IIRC (don't have access to that here). I also see no reason why you couldn't combine Fast firing or thumbing with Ranged rapid Strike. (in fact if Rof has to be split you would have to Thumb some guns to Range Rapidstrike anyway)

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

i.e. there is no GURPS rule for the equivalent of "thumbing" or faster than usual trigger pulling a sword or bow, because swords and bows just don't attack in that manner and so don't "thumb", (even if they can do other things that manifest with different rules)

Quick-Shooting Bows, Martial Arts (pp. 119-120). I argue that Quick-shooting is functionally the same as Thumbing, it's increase the rate of fire using a specialized technique.

But doing stuff takes time? Thumbing is just a method for cycling your gun faster than the usual method. (Thumbing while keeping you trigger pulled and thus controlling your ROF by thumbing and not trigger pulling for instance, and I think you can do the same with some slide actions keeping the trigger pulled and working the slide?)

No, maybe... it's complicated. With Single-action pistols... probably. DAO (Double-action only), it's probably a no, as the trigger must be pulled to cock the hammer. DA/SA... maybe after the first pull.

I'm having difficulty in finding any references the 'working the slide' in order to increase rate of fire, so I'm willing to accept it's not possible with semi-auto pistols.


And with some models of pump-action shotgun you can slamfire, which is essentially the same as Thumbing. The Winchester Model 1897 was extremely popular in trench warfare because it allowed this.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I'm afraid that it's my recollection of Kromm discussing this that "ROF" is how many shots you get per attack and not second.

The rule then would make zero sense, if it is per attack then why do you need to divide it per attack?