ATR/ETS Question

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Sadly, there are no penalties for fast moving objects. Just as there are no penalties for distance. There is only the symmetrical and interchangeable penalties for combned Speed/Range as found on thae table of that name.

I do not love the Speed/Range table (among other reasons it would allow us to deal with these issues separately) and I would be willing to see it go bye-bye in some far-future 5th edition but for now it's RAW.

The Speed/Range table still includes speed in its calculations, so fast moving objects do indeed have penalties to hit them. As for parsing out how much of the penalty from the table is down to speed and how much to range, it should be simple enough to look up what the penalty would be for a certain speed if the target were at point blank range, and allow the speed bonus (however bought) to counteract that much of the penalty and no more.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

The Speed/Range table still includes speed in its calculations, so fast moving objects do indeed have penalties to hit them. As for parsing out how much of the penalty from the table is down to speed and how much to range, it should be simple enough to look up what the penalty would be for a certain speed if the target were at point blank range, and allow the speed bonus (however bought) to counteract that much of the penalty and no more.

You probably don't want to introduce mechanics such that your character finds it easier to shoot a moving target than a stationary one at the same range. Which this would do.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

The Speed/Range table still includes speed in its calculations, so fast moving objects do indeed have penalties to hit them. As for parsing out how much of the penalty from the table is down to speed .

However, those penalties are not linear with speed.

A concrete example: A man-sized object moving at 50yards/sec (100 mph) at 2 yards distance is -8 to hit and you might say that is all do to speed. A man-sized object moving at 5 yards/secound at 225 yards of distance (275 total Speed/Range)is no harder to hit than a similar object that isn't moving at all.

All combinations of speed _and_ range that add up to more than 200 yrds but less than 301 are -13. Sometimes all of that could be due to speed and sometimes none of it. An ability negating some or all of the "speed" penalty will be frequently useless and always require ad hoc calculations.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You probably don't want to introduce mechanics such that your character finds it easier to shoot a moving target than a stationary one at the same range. Which this would do.

Then do it the other way around - look at the penalty for speed and range combined, then the penalty for range only. If your bonus DX or whatever can make up the difference, use the lower penalty. That way it's like they're standing still, but no better.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

What stumps me is how you can act faster without perceiving faster as a requirement or bi-product.

There is a tiny insect that can run faster than it can visually process. So it has to run, stop, assess the surroundings, then run again, all in a weird jerky pattern.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Then do it the other way around - look at the penalty for speed and range combined, then the penalty for range only. If your bonus DX or whatever can make up the difference, use the lower penalty. That way it's like they're standing still, but no better.

That is more what I had in mind when I thought that up.
I do not see the difficulty. As GM I would take the penalty for speed, and modifier for size and come up with a number,
In this case I simply would simply look it up as if range were 0 and get the modifier for speed then subtract the bonus from the advantage and then add that to range.
Not seeing the difficulty here.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Not to the point. In order to reliably act before people without Enhanced Time Sense, those who possess the advantage need to not just perceive, but actually physically move before them. Therefore, they're physically moving somewhat more quickly.

The type of reaction is different (or can be) then full movement and capability. Your able to perceive and think so can fire off the neurons faster but your body itself is not moving any faster.
Hence you cant run twice as fast or take two different maneuvers with just ETS.
That more digestible?
And note the assistant line editor did speak to this point and it agrees with RAW so I think its a moot point.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Refplace

The type of reaction is different (or can be) then full movement and capability. Your able to perceive and think so can fire off the neurons faster but your body itself is not moving any faster.

Sure it is. You're acting first, not just thinking about how to act first. If you weren't moving at least a teensy bit faster, sometimes somebody without ETS would beat you to the punch (maybe literally) because even though you decided what technique to throw before they did, the business end of their weapon got there first.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Hence you cant run twice as fast or take two different maneuvers with just ETS.
That more digestible?
And note the assistant line editor did speak to this point and it agrees with RAW so I think its a moot point.

The assistant line editor didn't errata the going first thing or the bonus to active defenses, so the point stands.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Refplace

As GM I would take the penalty for speed, and modifier for size and come up with a number,
In this case I simply would simply look it up as if range were 0 and get the modifier for speed then subtract the bonus from the advantage and then add that to range.
Not seeing the difficulty here.

Okay, the penalty for a man-sized object moving at 50 yards/second is -8. The total penalty for a SM 0 obkect moving at 50/yards/sec at a distance is -10. Subtract =8 from -10 and you get - 2 which is the penalty for an unmo0ving SM 0 object at 5 yards. An unmoiving object at 50yardsd would still be -8.

That is the dificulty.

You might instead subract a given speed from the target's speed (and never grant a bonus) before you added speed and range together but this will also give eccentric resuslts if not absolutely illogical ones..

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You might instead subract a given speed from the target's speed (and never grant a bonus) before you added speed and range together but this will also give eccentric resuslts if not absolutely illogical ones..

Rather than a given speed, I think this would be closer to the mark if your target's speed was reduced fractionally according to your level +1, so one level would half effective speed for targeting purposes, 2 levels would result in dividing by 3 etc.

As for ETS effecting physical speed... it does not! Reaction time is mental, the time it takes your brain to go from "this is happening... what should I do...ok I'll do this" is vastly reduced, so your brain tells your body what to do with less of a pause. You don't get a defensive bonus from greater body speed once you use your active defense, you get it for staring the defense slightly earlier. Your mind acts faster, as a result, your body moves sooner (but while you are moving, you're no faster than the guy without ETS)