CCP (EVE Online etc.) took over . . . White Wolf??? In 2006? WoD MMORPG in 2012?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

The Camarilla as a whole doesn't operate like this, and despite it's problems, is better than any MMO.

the Camarilla as a whole DOES operate just like that, as a 'whole' it is a interface pattern of individual groups do exactly that getting together at a set time and place, with some seed event thrown it to get thing rolling.

[panton41]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

MMO relies on when the person has a free moment to play loging on. This means to be a viable business model they HAVE to cater to solo play so people will stick around long enough to meet other players. With ou5 such quest you serve becomes a ghost doewn and NOTHING happens.

Second Life can be argued to operate like this and anymore it's a ghost town, though there more reasons for that then simply lack of interest, but I won't get into it. (Basically the world got "physically" larger and more isolated faster than the user base could fill it.)

[sir_pudding]

I don't think it's impossible for a computer game to have a mechanism that makes your character have a back history in the world. I don't think that it's impossible for a computer game to have mechanisms to reward good roleplaying. I don't think it's impossible for a computer game not to have inflationary hit points (in fact I still don't understand why a computer game needs hit points at all, if computers can do anything right it's math). I don't think it's impossible for a computer game to not have meaningless consequence free violence. It's not impossible to make a computer game that's more like a good tabletop game. It's not the technology that thus far makes MMOs (IMO)suck, it's the market. There's dozens of single player computer games that do a better job of an immersive experience.

[Palmer]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't think it's impossible for a computer game not to have inflationary hit points (in fact I still don't understand why a computer game needs hit points at all, if computers can do anything right it's math).

This part, as you say, is market driven. There have been games with no HP, and detailed limb-based wounding systems. Have been for a long time.

But people don't like them. HP is easy to use. It's easy for the player to assess in a glance. It's inherently understood. The computer doesn't need it, but the player does.
In many games, it's also a genre convention, and so leaving it out would be poor design.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Palmer

This part, as you say, is market driven. There have been games with no HP, and detailed limb-based wounding systems. Have been for a long time.

There are? They haven't been marketed very well. If I saw a ad or review for this game, I would have at least played the demo.

In many games, it's also a genre convention, and so leaving it out would be poor design.

That's only because D&D was a barely scaled sqaud skirmish game and HP represented more than just injury. That's not the case in any MMO I've seen, which all have real time combat by single individuals who defend themselves.

[panton41]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There are? They haven't been marketed very well. If I saw a ad or review for this game, I would have at least played the demo.

I recall a few FPSs that used this mechanism, but it was mostly as a way to make them more bloody, i.e. blowing off limbs, etc. If you include combat flight sims it's a fairly common thing.

That's not the case in any MMO I've seen, which all have real time combat by single individuals who defend themselves.

I'd only argue a small handful of MMOs play like this. Being single individuals and real time, yes, but most MMOs I've played have little to nothing in the way of actual player strategy outside of how to build and equip the character. My experience with World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Rift, etc. there's little to "playing" beyond mashing buttons or clicking in the right order. (Position rarely matters, for example.)

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by ciaran_skye

I recall a few FPSs that used this mechanism, but it was mostly as a way to make them more bloody, i.e. blowing off limbs, etc. If you include combat flight sims it's a fairly common thing.

I thought we were talking about MMORPGs, here. Are they're any of those that don't have inflationary HP systems?

I'd only argue a small handful of MMOs play like this. Being single individuals and real time, yes, but most MMOs I've played have little to nothing in the way of actual player strategy.

Strategy has nothing to do with it. In D&D hit points are supposed to represent a general loss of "ability to fight" over long periods of time. In MMOs combat is real-time and the animation usually depicts the characters defending themselves when they don't take damage.

[panton41]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I thought we were talking about MMORPGs, here. Are there any of those that don't have inflationary HP systems?

As far as I know, none. Though it's probably more due to the market than anything technical.

Strategy has nothing to do with it. In D&D hit points are supposed to represent a general loss of "ability to fight" over long periods of time. In MMOs combat is real-time and the animation usually depicts the characters defending themselves when they don't take damage.

I think the "loss of ability to fight" holds true even in a large number of MMOs. I kind of view what's graphically on the screen is only an abstraction of what's "actually happening". If anything because the on-screen images look so different from the concept art.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by ciaran_skye

I'd only argue a small handful of MMOs play like this. Being single individuals and real time, yes, but most MMOs I've played have little to nothing in the way of actual player strategy outside of how to build and equip the character. My experience with World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Rift, etc. there's little to "playing" beyond mashing buttons or clicking in the right order. (Position rarely matters, for example.)

Then you should try Ace Online. Whit does have HP for Shields and Hull, Maneuvering, position and Aim means a lot!

[sjard]

I have never understood why MMOs needed levels or increasing hp totals beyond an illusionary feeling of advancement.

I say illusionary because if you go from, say, level 10 to level 20, it still takes just as much time to kill an equal level target, and usually in roughly the same number of hits.

The target does the same damage to you (based as a percentage) at 20 as it did at 10.

So the increasing damage you do, and the increasing amount of HP you have, are effectively meaningless.

Sure, the numbers change, and the general, unthinking perception, is that this means you are better than you were. But as I said, this is an illusion.