Killing Superman [Powers]

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

One of the odd things about GURPS is that it is actually fairly easy to kill Superman.
[...]
While you would probably want a 1,000 CP character to support such a massive ability, you could use it against any superhuman with an associated source (even Cosmic). Paradoxically, Batman would likely still win.

So, how would you use a super with the ability to kill Superman (or any other insanely powerful super)? Would you have them as a secret anti-super weapon? A hero? A villain?

Any character that I'm likely to allow has a weakness of some sort, against something. From what I can tell, the same applies to most GMs and even most fiction writers, in that whether protagonists or villains, few fictional characters lack any way to threaten them.

It's actually a measure of how incredibly powerful and well-rounded Superman is that it takes [460] of custom-designed power to defeat him.

Consider, The-Superman-Killer requires only about 5 points; Guns (Rifle) DX+2 [4] and Signature Gear (Really Nice Tactical Rifle with Everything) [1] to be able to kill him pretty reliably and safely from a window somewhere.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Before launching this evil plan, Lex should research carefully to be sure Supes doesn't have Cosmic 5.

Superman does not have a superior form of Cosmic because he is vulnerable to magic, kryptonite, and red sunlight (mystical and technological countermeasures).

[Anders]

What is Cosmic 4 [60]? Is it a power talent?

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Superman does not have a superior form of Cosmic because he is vulnerable to magic, kryptonite, and red sunlight (mystical and technological countermeasures).

Ah, but, Superman has Unkillable (Granted by Ally Group (Fan Base), Accessibility: requires media industry, Cosmic (+indeterminate)).

[Anders]

Hasn't all the DC heroes died a number of times and come back from the dead? I know Batman has died many times.

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by Anders

What is Cosmic 4 [60]? Is it a power talent?

Yes, that would be the Cosmic Talent from Powers.

[WaterAndWindSpirit]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Consider, The-Superman-Killer requires only about 5 points; Guns (Rifle) DX+2 [4] and Signature Gear (Really Nice Tactical Rifle with Everything) [1] to be able to kill him pretty reliably and safely from a window somewhere.

I'm guessing "everything" does include a Kryptonite bullet then. Which is definitely fair enough.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by aesir23

This is a good point. I'll keep it in mind as I build my version of the Parasite.

Actually I need to take that back, I overlooked "You can only affect one source at a time" under the +300%. So it probably does function similarly to Alternative Abilities.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Cosmic (+300%) allows you to neutralize any source, regardless of if it normally has countermeasures or not, it just has to have a source modifier.

That part about "even if there are no countermeasures" is not mentioned under Neutralize though.

I think "any" should be read in context of the established parameters on P97:

Possibilities include magic, psi, spirit, and anything else the GM deems susceptible to neutralization.

Quoting this does lead me to notice a problem though. "Spirit" doesn't actually mention power countermeasures in it's pricing. P28 doesn't seem to imply that Neutralize (Spirit) exists...

-20 for fickle
-5 imposed disad

This is in basic how you get to the -25 total. There's no additional -5 for countermeasures which should bring the modifier to -30 if Neutralize (Spirit) existed.

There is a weird note about -5 / +5 which doesn't really make sense to me. -5 for your power sometimes being deprived at the worst possible moment... is that just reiterating the "show basic respect" disadvantage? Or is that meant to be an additional -5?

There's a +5 mentioned because "they ultimately want you to turn them loose on the world, though, it’s easy to make amends" which doesn't make sense to me. How would that completely offset the -5 for sometimes losing your powers? You still had to make amends so it was an inconvenience...

This makes me wonder though... if the 2nd instance of -5 was reiterating the 1st instance, then the +5 for making amends would bring -25 to -20, so to reach the -25 final, perhaps they originally intended to include a -5 for countermeasures like Neutralize (Spirit) but forgot it?

ANYWAY, getting back to this, P21 is very clear:
"nothing can take away the wielder’s power"
"enables the power’s abilities to work normally against attacks and opposing abilities enhanced with more expensive Cosmic options."

Cosmic is clearly off the table, and I think Biological/Chi/Elemental/Nature are too, unless the GM makes those limitations worth an additional -5% due to the existence of a Neutralize which can target them. I'll take "Spirit" off the table since it actually weirdly gets called out in Neutralize and there's this weird -5/-5/+5 writing in Spirit which may or may not add up.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It is why the Cosmic is +300%, because it allows normally untargetable abilities to be targeted.

I think it would be worth +300% merely to be able to target the usual four categories priced as susceptible to some form of Neutralize/Static (Magic/Psi/Super/Moral) simultaneously.

With no other modifiers in place, you're paying quadruple the price [200] which is the same cost as 4 separate kinds of Neutralize.

One benefit here is that rather than paying for enhancements multiple times for each of the base-50 abilities, you only have to buy it once. So for example if you bought Reliable+2 +10% [5] on 4 different base-5 abilities, that's going to cost you 5x4=20 points, so if you only need to buy it once, you're saving 15 points. This is a huge deal if you're needing to buy range or duration enhancements as they can get pretty expensive.

The drawback here is of course that you can only take limitations once, so you save fewer points.

Obviously you can save way more doing this with Alternative Abilities:

Neutralize Magic [50]
Neutralize Moral [10]
Neutralize Psi [10]
Neutralize Super [10]

You don't even need to take "Reduced Time" to avoid spending a Ready maneuver to switch between them. P11:

After switching to an attack (Affliction, Binding, Innate Attack, Leech, Neutralize, Obscure, Static, and anything else the GM views as an “attack”), switching to a different attack is a free action.

This is a nod to how Alternative Attacks works. I personally don't like it, but it's canon. However you ARE Still limited to 1 attack type per second/maneuver/turn:

If the user can make more than one attack per turn, he must use the same setting for all of them.

That's the key part: someone with +300% does NOT have that limitation. If they have multiple attacks they could neutralize different sources each turn.

Another thing here, is that huge enhancements open the window to having them paid by collecting high-value limitations. That's not a door opened with Alternative Abilities. If you want 4 alternative Neutralizes, you're still paying a -80% minimum of 10 points for the 1st and 2 points apiece for the other 3, for a minimum cost of 16 points.

A single instance of Neutralize with Cosmic +300% however, can be reduced to 10 points by taking -380% in limitations. So if you're one of those guys who collects Temporary Disadvantages, you're in luck with that enhancement.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by WaterAndWindSpirit

I'm guessing "everything" does include a Kryptonite bullet then. Which is definitely fair enough.

A Kryptonite bullet would probably need to be Consumable Signature Gear; while I don't have Supers, a brief bit of Googling indicates it's basically gear worth 10% of Starting Wealth per point of Consumable Signature Gear, and it replenishes itself automatically between sessions. At TL8 and Average Wealth, [1] gets you $2,000 worth of consumable gear (enough for a full 10-round magazine of silver bullets in .50 BMG). The only estimate I found online for the cost of a Kryptonite bullet was from reddit, which noted in a comic Batman indicates to Martian Manhunter that he'd need a sliver worth $70,000 to make a bullet to take Superman down. That would cost somewhere between $450,000 and $550,000 GURPS (the comic was apparently from sometime in the 50's; if 1950, it would be $550,000 in GURPS' 2004, if 1959, it would be $450,000); call it $500k. That would either require [250] worth of Signature Gear or, more likely, Filthy Rich [50]* and [3] worth of Signature Gear (which is actually $600k of consumable gear; this could be split into $500k consumables - a single Kryptonite bullet per session - and $500k of nonconsumable gear, which is more than enough for a rather fancy rifle as well as armor and just about whatever else to want). Of course, unless you tend to run into a lot of Kryptonians (or Kryptonite bullets have more utility than just fighting those), that bullet isn't going to see much use once you've used it to take down Superman.

*Signature Gear Only should be an available Limitation on Wealth, but I'm not sure what would be a fair value.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Anders

But Superman needs something to challenge him.

I have this conversation a lot, as a Superman fan. Superman isn't challenged through his powers, he's challenged by his choices. Basically, from an RPG perspective, Superman isn't challenged by mechanical challenges, but by role-playing ones. Superman isn't challenged by slogging through ten-thousand enemies, but by the choice, as a God, to live as a Man.

Challenge Superman by giving him a "foe" who doesn't want to be saved. Give him a "foe" who is afraid. Give him a "foe" who has a different world view than he does.

Superman is challenged by finding victory in no-win situations while upholding his moral views.

To me, this has always been the problem with sub-standard writers who feel the need to threaten Superman through his powers as opposed to threatening where he is weakest: his feelings.

You want a way to challenge Superman?

Have an innocent NPC with "Terminally Ill (Less than one month; Mitigator: Superman must perform morally-bankrupt acts [as defined by Superman's Code of Morals] weekly)" and let him figure that one out.

And, if you're wondering who afflicted that poor, innocent NPC. . .

Spoiler:  

Mr. Mxyzptlk, who else?