Something much better than high school

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by gjc8

It seems like that would depend on the kind of education. And I can certainly see Will being sufficiently important in a TL10 culture that it's included (probably not Per, though).

To answer more fully, there is a society in the OP's setting where Will is selected for by breeding and where it is constantly reinforced by psychosocial manipulation. This society, however, is highly abnormal and far from the only one that uses TL10 pedagogic technology.

So I think that when discussing this technology generally, it is better to examine the uses to which it it put in typical TL10 societies that aim to give their citizens the education and knowledge that they need to better themselves if they so choose, but don't necessarily aim to make everyone into a hard-working and self-reliant person who can make difficult decisions. Enough such people will be born anyway and will probably pose problems to the established order if not harnessed somehow.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

One thing that can be done is simply bribe students for grades. Some sniff at that but it has advantages. For one thing it is a clear and obvious reward. For another, a student raised in an anti-intellectual environment has an obvious response to peer pressure, "Hey, I like money; who doesn't."

I saw a very interesting outcome study for that (reported in The Economist, IIRC), which looked at the effects of bribing kids in US schools to wear uniforms, attend diligently, avoid disciplinary infractions, submit homework, do well on tests, get good grades, or read. It turned out that modest financial incentives were effective in getting kids to change their behaviour, but that they didn't make learning skills appear out of nowhere. The kids offered money for good test results and good grades were excited and enthusiastic, but they focussed on exam-taking strategies, not on studying or working exercises. Money for homework helped some, but the biggest effect came from paying kids to read (a huge range of reading matter was approved, including magazines and newspapers), and this was the only effect that persisted into the following year's grades.

[Nymdok]

[QUOTE=Brett;1133658

Yes indeed! That's why this bit of the setting is able to, and relies to a great extent upon, giving people formal training only in the elements and fundamentals of their professions, and then sending them out on extended internships to learn in the workplace.[/QUOTE]

Just out of curiosity, who decides their professions? If its them, then your asking them to make a career decision that many arent prepared to make at 18-20, do you think they'll be better at it at 14-16? If its the LAI/State then thats even creepier.

Either way, its tough to ask a teenager "What do you want to be when you grow up, and you better be right, its a decision that will be with you for 50 years"

Originally Posted by RyanW

Phobia (Lack of AI guidance)
Confused (Mitigator: AI advice)
Delusion (An AI will always be there to prevent any serious danger)

GO ahead and throw this in as well

OPH:Self Centered - (The ciriculum caters to me for 8 hours a day..the world at large is gonna be just like this!)

Delusion (why do the rich kids get better LAIs?)

Nymdok

[Brandy]

Brett, I really like the way you're thinking about this -- I can only imagine how much more effective I could be if I could create ad hoc, individualized, constructivist lessons that met learners at the exact conjunction of their interest and ability. Exciting stuff!

However, it seems to me that your conjecture is all about revolutionizing instruction and is, or so it seems to me, somewhat orthogonal to what skills would be learned (i.e. curriculum).

Take mathematics, just as an example. Mathematics could be taught to a very advanced level with this approach, with immense skill in comprehension, application, and raw symbol manipulation (like doing Algebra out-of-context). But wouldn't the "what was taught" depend entirely on the sensibilities of the LAI and by extension, the programmers/ designers responsible for their creation? I can see any outcome from "everyone learns as much advanced mathematics as they can" to "everyone learns how to problem solve and use critical thinking and creativity, but the actual computation is left to the AIs or other computers.

Those are my thoughts. Is that at all relevant?

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Group exercises, and social events can be factored in. Just because everybody is following and individual course of instruction, doesn't mean you can't get a regular group together to do a lab session or make use of the gym or the pool. Some resources would need to be shared, which would foster socialisation.

Exactly so. In addition to which there are organised games. Basketball, football, football, Rugby, volleyball, and even to an extent baseball or cricket (though the society I have in mind doesn't really have room for cricket) foster skills of communication, co-operation, and teamwork. So for that matter do orchestras musical combos.

There are teachers in these schools, but their job is other than to stand at the front of a class talking and keeping pupils in line. They are expert educators rather than subject-matter experts, and their role is counselling students, setting an example of reason and courtesy, and encouraging (which I mean literally, not as a synonym for commanding or bullying) the students to take on, say, building go-carts in the machine shop, putting on a production of Princess Ida, or holding a ball for the kids of nearby schools.

[Trachmyr]

As presented, I would agree with +1 or +2 IQ! + Multiple Dabbler Perks.

If the children have Neural Interfaces, then Socialization is easy... Even without, significant INDEPENDANT socialization can be enough to also improve Will.

If the education is Child Led rather than a strict curriculum, then Per would likely be improved as well. Also, the number of dabbler perks would be reduced and IQ! would be limited to +1, BUT, each child would likely have 1 or 2 levels in unique Talents.

Edited to Add: Either approach, I believe it's likely that children of this era would develop a few actual points in creative skills (Art, Engineering, Architecture, etc.) or social skills, as Labor is most likely obsolete in TL10, thus human jobs will often be focused on creativity or inter-personal relationships, and the society would focus on these areas.


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As for computer operation skill, no, by TL10 I think it would be gone.... or about as rare as using DOS-Shell on a modern PC.

I also find it unlikely that at this TL, with a progressive education system, that "mandatory education untill 18" would still apply. Instead, especialy with Child-Led Education, it would become as obiquitious as computing has become... educating throughout one's ENTIRE life, but seamlessly blended into daily activities, be it work, play or even sleep.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

As for computer operation skill, no, by TL10 I think it would be gone.... or about as rare as using DOS-Shell on a modern PC.

Computer Operation/TL10 won't look anything like Computer Operation/TL8, but remember that using any technology to its full capabilities is skilled work.

While it is easily possible to design TL8 media and information gadgets that require only a familiarity to operate, that doesn't mean that Electronic Operations (Media) is obsolete. A skilled user with a professional image editing and displaying gadget where everything is adjustable, not automatic, will be able to do things that the unskilled user can't do with his user-friendly iPad. Both can show people pictures on it, but ask them to create a demonstration slide-show illustrating the capabilities of a given piece of tech and the one with the skill will do better.

The same, mutatis mutandis, will in my opinion apply at TL10. Computer Operations is not necessary to ask computers to do stuff for you, no. But it is necessary to work as a system administrator somewhere, where you bot NAIs around to maintain the system. It should also be useful when you have to configurate automated research software to yield the best results on your Research skill.

In a TL10 setting, I would allow rolls against Computer Operatiors as a Complimentary Skill for nearly any task where in-depth knowledge of how computers worked could help you get the best out of them.

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Computer Operation/TL10 won't look anything like Computer Operation/TL8, but remember that using any technology to its full capabilities is skilled work.

While it is easily possible to design TL8 media and information gadgets that require only a familiarity to operate, that doesn't mean that Electronic Operations (Media) is obsolete. A skilled user with a professional image editing and displaying gadget where everything is adjustable, not automatic, will be able to do things that the unskilled user can't do with his user-friendly iPad. Both can show people pictures on it, but ask them to create a demonstration slide-show illustrating the capabilities of a given piece of tech and the one with the skill will do better.

The same, mutatis mutandis, will in my opinion apply at TL10. Computer Operations is not necessary to ask computers to do stuff for you, no. But it is necessary to work as a system administrator somewhere, where you bot NAIs around to maintain the system. It should also be useful when you have to configurate automated research software to yield the best results on your Research skill.

In a TL10 setting, I would allow rolls against Computer Operatiors as a Complimentary Skill for nearly any task where in-depth knowledge of how computers worked could help you get the best out of them.

I see it differently... it is the LAI who has "Computer Operation Skill", and uses it on your behalf when you ask.

But yes, specific jobs would still certainly require it. Much like being a modern seamstress/Tailor requires sewing skill, which is pretty much obsolete in modern society (most use default with extra-time).

So I admit that when I said "it would be gone", it was an oversimplification.... I should have said that it would be a niche skill for specific jobs, and not likely to be taught except as vocational training for those jobs.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

I see it differently... it is the LAI who has "Computer Operation Skill", and uses it on your behalf when you ask.

Indeed.

But since the eventual goal of the education for those who see themselves as creative and intelligent* is to become capable of either providing a creative application of a skill or be so competent in a field and in organising work in it that you can manage AIs, I think that Computer Operations would be commonly taught. After all, it is the trained use of equipment which can be used to help with nearly any skill.

Yes, it is possible to rely on the LAI to perform all Computer Operation skill checks for you. But that way you will never become better than the LAI at creative uses of Computer Operations.

*As opposed to the majority of students, who'd simply seek to learn enough to enjoy themselves and would be more likely to end their education with defaults, some Dabbler and a lot of skills representing their hobbies and interests.

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Indeed.

But since the eventual goal of the education for those who see themselves as creative and intelligent* is to become capable of either providing a creative application of a skill or be so competent in a field and in organising work in it that you can manage AIs, I think that Computer Operations would be commonly taught. After all, it is the trained use of equipment which can be used to help with nearly any skill.

Yes, it is possible to rely on the LAI to perform all Computer Operation skill checks for you. But that way you will ever become better than the LAI at creative uses of Computer Operations.

*As opposed to the majority of students, who'd simple seek to learn enough to enjoy themselves and would be more likely to end their education with defaults, some Dabbler and a lot of skills representing their hobbies and interests.

If your advanced field of study focuses on computer technology itself or if "Computer Operations" becomes a governing trait that limits all other creative pursuits (ala Free-Fall skill limiting skill use), then I agree.

However, as I can attest to many individuals with training in Computer-Based Graphics who are both very-good in art, but become quickly flustered (and often reset their computer) when there's a pop-up they can't click away, I would say that "Computer Operation" does not govern these pursuits.

So I'm left only with the first option... Computer Operation will be specific Training for specific vocations, but will not be a general skill of the public once LAI's exist.

That is ofcourse my take on it, and at the moment it's all conjecture.