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Old 11-18-2015, 08:06 AM   #1
Arcanjo7Sagi
 
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Default Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

I have a question about how exactly GURPS can emulate the relationship between the cyborg brain with it's Life Support System and the rest of the body.

A brain needs nutrients, oxygen and other things do survive. In science fiction, a total cyborg have a brain case with Life Support System. But in some fictions, they don't give us much detail about. Others, like the original Robocop, show us that the brain still needs some "food" to survive (nutrients and others things), so the cyborg (in this case, Murphy/Robocop), have some form of artificial digestive system.

But in GURPS Ultra-Tech we don't have much details about this kind of stuff. The books says that a total cyborg have a case with Life Supprt System, sure. But what about the rules?

In the Android template it's says that the robot need fuel cells. So, a total cyborg body would need some form of fuel cells to work. But even if the cyborg is Nucllear powered, the brain would still need nutrients, so, in theory, you still need to eat.

Some may think that this details could be included in Maintenance disadvantage (maybe replacing the nutrients used/consumed or something like that), but for me it's doesn't seem quite right.

How we can emulate this in GURPS, at least in a "realistic" way?


And about other thing: it's really necessary to have the Maintenance disadvantage? I mean, it make some sense, but the frequency rate doesn't seem right. I mean, sure, we can assume that they are very complex and needs constant attention. But look and hour computers, cars, etc.. They need some maintenance, sure, but not with this frequency. You can use a car or a computer for more than year without any special attention. This, of course, may differ from movie to movie, book to book, etc.. But... I don't know. Maybe this should be discussed somehow.


Anyway, thanks and sorry for any english mistakes (and I know that there are many).

=)
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Old 11-18-2015, 11:23 AM   #2
Arith Winterfell
 
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Default Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

I think one of the more realistic ways to handle this would be to leave the cyborg with a need to eat, and have restricted diet nutrient paste (this is something like how Robocop functions). In this case the cyborg body would have a system of processing the nutrient paste so as to provide nutrients to the brain, but it wouldn't be able to process normal food as that would require alot more work to processes.

Additionally I would think there would need to be a system to handle oxygen to the brain as well. This would mean effectively I think they wouldn't have "Doesn't Need to Breathe" or the like, or perhaps a modified version of that for oxygen storage in tanks integrated into the body. Regardless it would need a system to appropriately dissolve the oxygen into a blood delivery system so that the brain cells could properly use the oxygen.

I rather agree about maintenance and feel like it would be more realistic to have it set to something like a yearly thing. But realistically that would really depend on how the cyborg body is built.
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

Yes, I was thinking in something like Oxygen Storage and maybe even Reduced Consumption for both food and air. Since your only biological function part is the brain, I think you need less food and air (I read somewhere that brain consumes about 20% of air of your whole body).

For normal humans, you need food and water. Since a cyborg lacks of body, I think we can trade water for Power Cells.

So, the Reduced Consumption advantage would reduced Food and Power Cells consumption (and can even the normal "Food Only" and the new "Power Cell Only" for -50%.

Am I missing something?

As for maintenance, I was thinking in something like a Quirk: Annual Maintenance.

PS: Rules for Reduced Consumption (Air) can be found in Transhuman Space: Changing Times, pg 41.
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

The key question to ask is if cyborgs are substantially easier or harder to provide life support for than normal humans.

If they require some sort of nutrient paste that has to be specially prepared (rendered down from proteins, screened for viruses, whatever) they have a Restricted Diet (Common: Nutrient Paste) for -10 points. If they can make do with any sort of normal food but risk damage, they also have the substitution mitigator for -50%. If they can use normal food with no risk of damage, this is just a feature of their condition and not worth any points (although might have a quirk "Processes food noisily before consuming")

If the cyborg requires less life support than a normal human, give them reduced consumption, which also works with restricted diet. For example, if they require one dose of nutrient paste a day (versus 3 normal meals for a human) they would have reduced consumption 2 [4]. Cyborgs commonly have no need for water, so Doesn't Eat or Drink (Drink only -50%) [5] would be a good advantage to take.

If the cyborg requires more life support, increased consumption would be appropriate and applied in a similar way. Perhaps the cyborg brain is overclocked and requires a large amount of nutrient paste to remain active.

Does the cyborg require more skilled labour to maintain than a normal person does from a doctor? If so, maintenance is the appropriate disadvantage. For a sci-fi cyborg a visit to the local worlds bio-programmer once a month seems about right, so give them Maintenance (Bio-Electric Engineering, 1 person, monthly) [-2]. Continuing the progression of maintenance intervals, a once every 3 month check up would be a -1 quirk.

Even if the cyborg does not require maintenance, they very likely have Unhealing (Total, except brain damage -10%) [-27], so if they are damaged they will need someone who can repair them.

If the cyborg also needs a power supply (energy cells, fusion cores, whatever) I would add a second Restricted Diet as an alternate ability to the most expensive one. Combining reduced or increased consumption with the restricted diet first to create a meta-disadvantage is advisable here to make sure the math all works out correctly. I would do this as an alternate ability because generally supply problems are only as bad as the most difficult one (Needing a power cell once a year doesn't matter when you need food once a day and can't get access to it)

As a final example of the whole trait to produce a hardish sci-fi cyborg:

Restricted Diet (Common: Nutrient Paste) + Reduced Consumption 2 [-6]
AA: Restricted Diet (Common: Energy Cell) + Reduced Consumption 3 [-1]
Doesn't Drink [5]
Maintenance (Cyborg Engineering, 1 Person, 1 Month) [-2]
Unhealing (Total, except brain damage -10%) [-27]

Final: Cyborg [-31]
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Last edited by VariousRen; 11-18-2015 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Explaining why I used an AA
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

You can also go the "build the brain as a total quadriplegic parasite to the robot body" route. Remember the rule from THS that requires you to buy your _most expensive_ body at full price.

Doing it that way, you can give the brain its own life-support disads (restricted diet "nutrient paste", doesnt breath (oxygen storage), etc), and give the body the restrictions IT needs (restricted diet: enery cells, doesnt breath, unhealing, maintenance, etc). Without having to A/A disads (which gets weird).
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Old 11-18-2015, 04:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

I would add that water intake is important too. The brain is surrounded by cerebral fluid which helps shield it from injuries, and you need fluid for the blood that delivers nutrients to the brain and dissolves oxygen into a form brain cells can use.

I'd argue that without regular water intake the cyborg's brain would dry up and die.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

We go through around 1/2 liter of cerebrospinal fluid a day. It's produced and reabsorbed constantly.
You only need to take in water if you can't purify what you have or "leak" it for some purpose or injury. Like sweating, urinating, or bleeding. For some desert animals, the one leak they can't do much about is exhalating all the moist lung air.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:25 PM   #8
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Default Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
You can also go the "build the brain as a total quadriplegic parasite to the robot body" route. Remember the rule from THS that requires you to buy your _most expensive_ body at full price.

Doing it that way, you can give the brain its own life-support disads (restricted diet "nutrient paste", doesnt breath (oxygen storage), etc), and give the body the restrictions IT needs (restricted diet: enery cells, doesnt breath, unhealing, maintenance, etc). Without having to A/A disads (which gets weird).
Then you get the issue of Daleks. If they're NEVER going to be outside their machines, why count them separately?

I know that I made a thread on this very topic a while back.

I would prefer the Machine template with a modifier for "not the brain" and separate Fatigue score for mental losses, etc.
Dietary restrictions then include both unusual brain foods and electricty/batteries, also etc.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:30 PM   #9
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Default Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Then you get the issue of Daleks. If they're NEVER going to be outside their machines, why count them separately?

I know that I made a thread on this very topic a while back.

I would prefer the Machine template with a modifier for "not the brain" and separate Fatigue score for mental losses, etc.
Dietary restrictions then include both unusual brain foods and electricty/batteries, also etc.
I guess Ill leave the discussion to that other thread, rather than clutter this one. But just the fact that you dont have to figure out some tiny limitation on Unliving (for the body) to exclude the No Brain part makes it worth it to me. It isnt really about whether they will move body to body, its just about keeping the various different rules easy to decipher. If they CANT move, dump Possession. There was a neat thread on Ettins as two separate characters I started not long ago that could be raided for ideas too.

YMMV though.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: Total Cyborg, Life Support System, and how GURPS deal whith it

Mobile possession makes me think of the little aliens from Men In Black or when The Thing's head sprouted spider legs and ran away.

I once thought of making a fully robotic version of those.
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