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Old 12-05-2018, 05:48 AM   #31
a humble lich
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Default Re: Unlimited Warp

The problem I see is what happens when things are weightless. When things are in freefall can you now teleport an infinite amount? When a character jumps off a ledge they are now weightless, does that mean the character can teleport an infinite mass then? Even worse, what is the weight of the Earth? Since it is in orbit, it is weightless...

Telekinesis gets around these issues because it puts out a finite force. (This also breaks physics, but in more subtle ways.)
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Old 12-05-2018, 12:32 PM   #32
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Unlimited Warp

Why would you assume the rules actually intended the technical physical difference between weight and mass as a hair-splitting distinction in the wording of the rules? It just seems like making a problem where there really isn't one. Given that the rules are generally written assuming a human(oid) character in Earth-normal conditions, just read all the entries for "pounds" as "pounds mass" or "pounds force" where the context would suggest that as being reasonable. Then adjust as necessary for non-1G conditions, if that comes up in your games.
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:25 PM   #33
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Unlimited Warp

Quote:
Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
The problem I see is what happens when things are weightless. When things are in freefall can you now teleport an infinite amount? When a character jumps off a ledge they are now weightless, does that mean the character can teleport an infinite mass then?
I don't understand how you're weightless just because you're falling. Gravity is still acting on it.

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Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
Even worse, what is the weight of the Earth? Since it is in orbit, it is weightless...
I guess you would calculate that in respect to the sun's gravity and the Earth's distance from it? Weight is in respect to whatever you want to carry something away from or perpendicular to, I guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
Telekinesis gets around these issues because it puts out a finite force. (This also breaks physics, but in more subtle ways.)
3e Telekinesis? 4e sounds like TK could lift more on low G worlds.
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Old 12-05-2018, 04:40 PM   #34
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Unlimited Warp

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Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
The problem I see is what happens when things are weightless. )
Nothing with mass is ever weightless. "Falling" is not the same thing as being "weightless". And the amount of mass you can move by such means does not change with the local gravity field.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:40 PM   #35
a humble lich
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Default Re: Unlimited Warp

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Nothing with mass is ever weightless. "Falling" is not the same thing as being "weightless". And the amount of mass you can move by such means does not change with the local gravity field.
I disagree. It depends on what you mean by weight. I say weight is the force measured by a spring scale, which would be zero in free fall. This is the force required to lift an object. The thing about gravity, is that observers in an elevator in free fall has* no way to determine if they are on the Earth in a falling elevator, in orbit, or in the middle of space far from any bodies. All they know is that they are in an inertialess reference frame and the apparent force of gravity is zero.

Now, for game purposes, it would be reasonable to say that the Warp power is effected by curvature of space-time and the amount one can carry is influenced by the local gravity. That breaks physics, but not as much as the Warp advantage already is. That would mean the effective gravity of spinning space stations should not count because there is no space-time curvature.


* Technically an observer of non-zero size could measure tidal effects from gravity. This is equivalent to measuring the space-time curvature. But this is a very different effect than measuring an object's weight.
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:21 PM   #36
Culture20
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Default Re: Unlimited Warp

For game purposes, it’s much more useful to assume that the game designers meant mass, because if orbits matter, then Earth is in the Sun’s orbit, and Sol is in the galaxy’s super-massive black hole’s orbit, so...
This way, the game is not broken. Forget whether or not physics gets broken. Most of the advantages in the books break physics.
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:55 PM   #37
chandley
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Unlimited Warp

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Which page priced Warp Only at -60?
ST for just one thing (like one form of attack) is canonically -60% to -70%. Compare Striking ST (Only with bite -60%) (as used all over the place) or Lifting ST (Arms Only -70%) (from Technical Grappling). Since this is ST that only Warp can use (rather than ST that could help the critters while wrestling or lifting heavy rocks to throw), I went with -60%.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:31 AM   #38
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Unlimited Warp

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Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
I disagree. It depends on what you mean by weight. I say weight is the force measured by a spring scale, which would be zero in free fall.
The planet is in free fall.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:07 AM   #39
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Unlimited Warp

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Originally Posted by a humble lich View Post
I say weight is the force measured by a spring scale, which would be zero in free fall. This is the force required to lift an object.
To "lift" an object is moving it away from the gravity source it is being pulled toward. Lifting a falling object is harder because you don't just need to counteract the acceleration of its weight (as you would an object at rest) but also counteract the momentum it has already built up in the time it has been falling.

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
Lifting ST (Arms Only -70%) (from Technical Grappling).
I think my understanding of this was narrowed by the scope of the semantic "Grip ST". TG28 "one set or type of limbs" sounds like you could define (Limb) Grip ST as "Leg Grip ST" and use it to do not just grappling but heavy lifting in general with just the legs.
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