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Old 06-11-2007, 02:13 PM   #91
Bruno
 
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony
Well, I have enough trouble coming up with a logic for damaging Sense-based attacks to start with. I guess a sense-based affliction. Then again, the interaction of DR with Afflictions has never made any sense to me either.
I had a supers character in 3e who could shriek so loud it could stun and deafen people, make their ears bleed, and then eventually melt their brains out the ears in an extremely cinematic fasion if she could keep it up for approximately 10 seconds (involved spending FP, Breath Control rolls, and not having someone distract her).

Gorgons that partially petrify with systemic toxic damage and a linked Affliction of Lame: Crippled Legs to halve the characters move, and a DX debuf come to mind...
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:15 PM   #92
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

My original reading was that you could have an armor divisor level that ignored DR, but not all things that ignore DR are armor divisors. An apple can be red, but just because something is red doesn't make it an apple.
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:16 PM   #93
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

I was going to bring up the "Funniest joke in the world" but that's just a Heart Attack Affliction, it doesn't do damage.

I can think of several things, most would be linked to/have symptoms or side effects, but I can get several ideas that do damage through ones senses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
My original reading was that you could have an armor divisor level that ignored DR, but not all things that ignore DR are armor divisors. An apple can be red, but just because something is red doesn't make it an apple.
Right, however, hardened specifically states "ignores DR" as one of the levels, which is where the problem lies. Sense Based "ignores DR" so hardened DR defends against it. Bruno and I are simply using their logic against them.

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 06-11-2007 at 02:20 PM. Reason: To respond
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:21 PM   #94
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

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Originally Posted by Anthony
Well, I have enough trouble coming up with a logic for damaging Sense-based attacks to start with. I guess a sense-based affliction. Then again, the interaction of DR with Afflictions has never made any sense to me either.
Vision: Psychedelic lights (fatigue).
Sound: Loud noise.
Touch: Heat and Cold (fatigue appropriate).
Smell: Toxic gas (respiratory is more appropriate, but the same thing)

Any mystical attack could be sense based as well. At the end of Raiders of the Lost ark the ark produced an area vision based area attack that melted anyone that saw it..
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:25 PM   #95
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Vision: Psychedelic lights (fatigue).
Sound: Loud noise.
Touch: Heat and Cold (fatigue appropriate).
Smell: Toxic gas (respiratory is more appropriate, but the same thing)
Oooh. Good examples. Welcome aboard, naloth.
Oooh. Respiratory Agent also ignores DR. So, hardened DR protects against it as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Any mystical attack could be sense based as well. At the end of Raiders of the Lost ark the ark produced an area vision based area attack that melted anyone that saw it..
That could be just a heart attack affliction. More likley it's a sense-based malediction. BUT it's an excellent example.

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 06-11-2007 at 02:33 PM. Reason: clicked post instead of preview, I really need to get my brain recalibrated . . ..
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:41 PM   #96
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

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Originally Posted by Anthony
Now, DR that works against any source of damage is not inherently bad; I typically give large objects a DR of about 1/20 of HP that cannot be reduced by any means, to eliminate certain classes of stupid effects (1d attacks should not destroy a thousand ton container ship in any useful amount of time, no matter how good they are at penetrating armor), but it's not clear that Hardened is the way to go there.
I'd say that 'obscene amounts of HP are the way to go there'. A 'tramp steamer' has 750 hp per Basic Set, a container ship must have way more than that- many thousands would be my guess. It'll take half an hour of continuous attacking at 1d6 (average 3.5 damage) to reduce just 1000 hp to -5X (which renders the ship completely unusable, though possibly reparable). Note that this is certainly not 'damaged until it doesn't look like a ship any more', that a container ship will certainly have many times that value in hit points, and that attacking every second for half an hour is just begging for the GM to assign a prohibitively large FP cost! I'd say that added DR isn't really needed.


Now back to the topic.
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:43 PM   #97
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Malediction and Sense-Based aren't meant to interact with Hardened at all. It's very specifically Cosmic that's affected, because Cosmic is really a high level of Armor Divisor. Malediction and Sense-Based aren't high levels of Armor Divisor -- they're something else. And yeah, when we get a FAQ Keeper, we can note this.
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:46 PM   #98
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

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Originally Posted by Kromm
Malediction and Sense-Based aren't meant to interact with Hardened at all. It's very specifically Cosmic that's affected, because Cosmic is really a high level of Armor Divisor. Malediction and Sense-Based aren't high levels of Armor Divisor -- they're something else. And yeah, when we get a FAQ Keeper, we can note this.
Is there any particular reason for separating "ignores DR" from other armor divisors if it's not meant to be any different?
It would make a lot more sense if every armor divisor level was under "Armor Divisors" - omitting one (100) and changing the name of another (infinite) really made the situtation rather confusing. If not for threads like this, it wouldn't have occured to me that some cosmics are really cosmic and some are just other things with a different name.

Last edited by Extrarius; 06-11-2007 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 06-11-2007, 02:49 PM   #99
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Malediction and Sense-Based aren't meant to interact with Hardened at all.
Oh, I know, it's just funny. They're not meant to, however, the logic used in the defense of Cosmic relied wholy upon semantics. And, by utilizing the semantics against them, we show just how rediculious the situation was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
It's very specifically Cosmic that's affected, because Cosmic is really a high level of Armor Divisor. Malediction and Sense-Based aren't high levels of Armor Divisor -- they're something else.
I know, but, the whole problem is that was never clear. It is now, to those of us in the thread, but there are a lot of people out there who don't know that. And many of us still think that it's not valid because Cosmic never said it was an armor divisor.

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And yeah, when we get a FAQ Keeper, we can note this.
That'll be nice.
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Old 06-11-2007, 03:12 PM   #100
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Legend
How do you model an ability that lets you injure people and ignore their armor. Not by going through it, but when you hit them, it kind of pretends the armor isn't there.

Something like an initial attack that does no wounding or damaging, and then a follow-up attack that injures the target for whatever the initial damage dice was regardless of if damage penetrated, wounding mod and all.

Possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr
Yes Cosmic: Irresistable Attack (+300%) + Cosmic: Ignores Hardened (+50%)
I have been following the thread with much attention, as I'm modeling a d20 power that's exactly a truly irresistible attack, having as a nasty side effect the fact it drains the user's life energy. Although I added Requires No Roll to Hit (+100%) and Allows No Active Defense (+300%), I haven't considered Hardened. But now that's fixed. Thanks!

However, I'd like now to invert the issue: how to build an irresistible defense? I mean, not Hardned Cosmic DR, something that you just "use" and puff, attack failed. (As I said, this is for a d20 power I'm trying to model, and it has as a balancing factor of sorts the fact that every use of these abilities drain the user's life force).
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