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Old 06-11-2007, 12:04 PM   #61
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldrin
I have a problem with that. The maximum may be 100, but why does Sam, the hardened armour wearing clown (he's not a good clown), get to buy 20% enhancement to virtually neuter the effect of my 300% enhancement?
Huh? For +20% on DR 100 (+100 points) he gets to reduce 1d Cosmic (20p) to 1d-1 Cosmic (14p). If he wants to neuter your 300% enhancement he needs to buy a +120% enhancement in Hardened.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:13 PM   #62
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

I find the idea of DR 6 (Hardened 6 +120%) [66] negating "Slap of God" somewhat humorous.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:21 PM   #63
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

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Originally Posted by Extrarius
I find the idea of DR 6 (Hardened 6 +120%) [66] negating "Slap of God" somewhat humorous.
Presumably God, being omniscient and omnipotent, just slaps harder. For finite characters who can actually be written up in GURPS, I don't see anything wrong with that effect.

As a side note: I'm not at all sure that Hardened working vs Cosmic actually makes sense. I just think that (a) according to the RAW it does, and (b) letting it do so is not unbalanced.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:22 PM   #64
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony
Huh? For +20% on DR 100 (+100 points) he gets to reduce 1d Cosmic (20p) to 1d-1 Cosmic (14p). If he wants to neuter your 300% enhancement he needs to buy a +120% enhancement in Hardened.
Mathematically speaking, taking something from times infinity to times 100 is pretty neutering it. Who said 100 DR?
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:23 PM   #65
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldrin
Mathematically speaking, taking something from times infinity to times 100 is pretty neutering it. Who said 100 DR?
Armor divisors round DR down, so you need DR 100 (Hardened) to do anything vs Cosmic attacks.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:25 PM   #66
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony
Armor divisors round DR down, so you need DR 100 (Hardened) to do anything vs Cosmic attacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Extrarius
I find the idea of DR 6 (Hardened 6 +120%) [66] negating "Slap of God" somewhat humorous.
Really? Looks like you only need a few...
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:27 PM   #67
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldrin
Mathematically speaking, taking something from times infinity to times 100 is pretty neutering it. Who said 100 DR?
In a setting where damage and defences runs in the hundreds of thousands, it might be appropriate to have more levels of Armour Divisors.

For the vast majority of campaigns, however, Armour Divisor (100) is almost equal to Armour Divisor (Infinite), if only because doesn't get high enough for the difference to matter much.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:29 PM   #68
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony
As a side note: I'm not at all sure that Hardened working vs Cosmic actually makes sense. I just think that (a) according to the RAW it does, and (b) letting it do so is not unbalanced.
These are things I agree with. I think it's balanced, I just don't think it's elegant, since it blocks out a number of character options, and makes for some odd results. The house rule I prefer is to make Armor Divisor 100 and Armor Divisor: Ignores DR available as separate enhancements (at +250% and +300% respectively), and separate Cosmic: Ignores DR entirely. Hardened does its normal job on normal Armor Divisors, but Cosmic still goes right through it.
This lets me establish tiers of power. For example: in a fantasy world, mage-smiths can enhance both their weapons (giving them an armor divisor), and their armor (giving them hardened). The weapons of the gods, however, have Cosmic, which means they blow through mortal armor, no matter how magical, as if it wasn't there. Godly armor has cosmic too, which stops godly weapons just fine. And the smith god can add armor divisor to godly weapons, and hardening to godly armor. So, the war god's weapon might have Cosmic: Irresistable Attack and Armor Divisor: Ignores DR, blowing right through mortal and divine armor, while the god of defense would have Cosmic Defense and Hardening 6, letting their armor have full effect against even the war god's weapons.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:29 PM   #69
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

From p. B47:
Hardened: Each level of Hardened reduces the armor divisor of an attack by one step. These steps are, in order: "ignores DR," 100, 10, 5, 3, 2, and 1 (no divisor). +20% per level.
To paraphrase Armor Divisor, p. B102:
Armor Divisor . . . Modifier
(2) . . . +50%
(3) . . . +100%
(5) . . . +150%
(10) . . . +200%
Note how the modifiers are priced at +50% per canonical step. The next steps would logically be (100) for +250% and "ignores DR" for +300%.

Finally, to precis Cosmic, p. B103:
Irresistible attack. Your attack does negate the target's protection; e.g., an Innate Attack that ignores DR. +300%.
That's simply an explicit statement of the missing final step of Armor Divisor.

When Powers says, "DR with Cosmic subtracts from 'irresistible' attacks with Cosmic," it means exactly what it says. DR 100 with the +50% version of Cosmic counts as DR 100 vs. an attack with the +300% version of Cosmic. Against an attack with a (10) divisor, that Cosmic DR acts as DR 10, because the defensive +50% version of Cosmic isn't Hardened, and does nothing againt other armor divisors. Somebody with DR 100 (Hardened 1, +20%) gets DR 1 vs. an attack with the +300% version of Cosmic, because he shifts "ignores DR" to (100), while he gets DR 20 vs. an attack with a (10) divisor, because he shifts (10) to (5).

If you want an attack that not only ignores DR but also ignores Hardened, then add another +50% to your +300%.
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:51 PM   #70
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Ignoring Armor once and for all.

Fortunately, I caught Kromm's post right before I posted myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powers p. 118
To unconditionally avoid protection requires the “irresistible attack” version of Cosmic (p. B103) – and even then, defenses with Cosmic can still interfere, if the GM allows them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
If you want an attack that not only ignores DR but also ignores Hardened, then add another +50% to your +300%.
Thank you for the clairifcation of the disucssion Kromm. While I disagree with you as I do believe you are contradicting the RAW, that effectively ends the discussion. It does, however, answer the core question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Legend
How do you model an ability that lets you injure people and ignore their armor. Not by going through it, but when you hit them, it kind of pretends the armor isn't there.

Something like an initial attack that does no wounding or damaging, and then a follow-up attack that injures the target for whatever the initial damage dice was regardless of if damage penetrated, wounding mod and all.

Possible?
Yes Cosmic: Irresistable Attack (+300%) + Cosmic: Ignores Hardened (+50%)

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 06-11-2007 at 12:53 PM. Reason: I put the wrong quote from Kromm in.
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