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Old 01-11-2020, 06:54 PM   #1
Galfridus
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Bedford, MA
Default Firing at Top Armor / Weapon Depression

So today I learned that the Truck Stop rule for targeting the tops of cars is gone (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=146895). Instead there is rather vague text about shooting things from above, where the 45-degree rule seems to apply (you need a 45 degree angle to target top armor).

1) What is the vertical range of non-turret weapons?

2) What is the lowest depression possible for a turreted weapon (45 as the upper limit is specified)?

Apart from oversized vehicles, multi-level arenas and jumps (not to mention jump jets) all create situations where targeting top armor is potentially relevant.
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Old 01-13-2020, 12:37 AM   #2
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Firing at Top Armor / Weapon Depression

There is no vertical range per-se (as there is no horizontal range), the negative to hit modifiers just accumulate until you need more than a 12 to hit, thus it varies depending on your gunner skill, targeting computer etc.

If you are targeting a helicopter with a side weapon it is only in arc if its horizontal range exceeds its height (relative to the firing vehicle).

The range of the shot is calculated exactly the same way you would for a turret (or top mounted weapons) i.e. using Pythagoras' method (i.e. Range = square root of (height squared plus horizontal range squared). Some groups just use the horizontal component for simplicity.

45 degrees below horizontal is usually accepted as the lowest depression as well (or off the vertical for top or bottom mounted weapons).

Personally I din't find the text "vague", though it is buried in an odd pace because it was introduced with the jumping and falling rules in and ADQ. When it was incorporated into the compendium it was put in a new section rather than be reorganised to be with the rest of the LOS and arc rules..

It is entirely explicit and applies in all conditions (rather than having to remember an exception for oversized vehicles). You need to do a bit more figuring the first few times (and I found drawing side projections helpful), but after a while it becomes second nature. Just remember the weapon is considered to originate at the mid point of the counter and this includes the vertical plane as well (thus for a 1/2" high counter, its side weapons are 1/4" form the ground).

It should be noted that with these rules, a shot on top armour is now often possible on flat roads with ordinary vehicles (i.e. even vans can target subcompact tops). They will usually suffer the -2 as they will be out of the arc of top weapons on the target.
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Old 01-13-2020, 03:34 AM   #3
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London, UK
Default Re: Firing at Top Armor / Weapon Depression

In non Oversized Vehicles , players normally don't bother to target Tops of non Turreted Vehicles anyway in my experience .
Had massive arguments with posters on Combat Garage - I've mentioned it as a Topic here - about NOT having to Armour Trikes Tops almost as heavily as Trikes SIDES , 'just in case' someone takes an extremely rare potshot at it !!! :-/

In 35+ years of playing using Trikes , guess how many shots at Trike Tops I've seen from 'ground level' ?
FOUR . AND two of those missed !

As normally they are smaller targets , they are often -2 to -5 to hit the Top , plus any other negative modifiers .
My Hardtarget Light Trike with Sloped Armour , is -4 to hit from Front+ Back / -3 from Sides - thus -6 to hit Top from Front / -5 from Sides .
Lasers & VMGs have been know to miss it's sides at Point Blank range & Top would be even harder !

You may have to fudge it some times , use 'Rules of Logic' & so long as most everyone agrees & are happy with it , then go for it .
The game does throw these type of puzzlers at us from time to time ...
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Old 01-13-2020, 09:26 AM   #4
Magesmiley
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Snohomish, WA
Default Re: Firing at Top Armor / Weapon Depression

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galfridus View Post
So today I learned that the Truck Stop rule for targeting the tops of cars is gone (http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=146895). Instead there is rather vague text about shooting things from above, where the 45-degree rule seems to apply (you need a 45 degree angle to target top armor).

1) What is the vertical range of non-turret weapons?

2) What is the lowest depression possible for a turreted weapon (45 as the upper limit is specified)?

Apart from oversized vehicles, multi-level arenas and jumps (not to mention jump jets) all create situations where targeting top armor is potentially relevant.
No limit on the range. The angle caps out at 45 degrees, above which the top arc takes over, and below which the underbody arc takes over.

Similarly, turrets cap out at 45 degrees down and also up (an exception to the latter being a universal turret).

One thing to keep in mind though is that turrets are tracing from the center of the top of the vehicle - which means that they are slightly higher than other weapons. (Check the jumping and falling rules for the heights of specific vehicles).

The simples way to determine whether a vehicle can shoot at a target at a different elevation, incidentally, is to compare the range to elevation difference. If the elevation difference is greater than the distance (taking the vehicle height into account if it's close), it's outside of the side arcs (which turrets use).

I use the firing point to determine if a shot can be at the top or not - if it's in the target's top arc, it can be a top shot at no penalty. If it is higher than the height of the vehicle, but not in the top arc, I allow the shot still, but assess the standard -2 out of arc penalty.

And of course, shots at turrets are allowed from the side arcs at the standard -2, but can only destroy the turret weapon.
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Old 01-20-2020, 12:00 PM   #5
juris
 
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: CA
Default Re: Firing at Top Armor / Weapon Depression

This was a stealth rule change in the 2.5e Compendium. Truck stop had a simple rule that only applied to oversized vehicles. I think it was turrets on OS vehicles could fire down onto the top armor of a car within 6" or so - but there was a 'point blank' blind spot to counteract this. Having a 4-space turret firing DOWN onto someone's roof was often a one-shot kill.

In the latest 2.5e vehicles were all given separate heights - vans and pickups were particularly tall. They also introduced the -2 to fire at a non-facing side rule. Some people interpreted this to allow a pickup with a turret to fire down onto the roof of a luxury or smaller with a -2, which was CLEARLY not something anyone intended but was also a pretty cool twist and kept people from cheesing 1 point of armor on top. I have mixed feelings about this stealth change but I'm generally ok with it.

Fear the laser turret pickup.

Also, Racer plenty of people in my games fired down into the roof of a trike because most of the stock designs didn't account for this :). Ironically if people build their trikes with this in mind people don't try it.

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So today I learned that the Truck Stop rule for targeting the tops of cars is gone
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