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Old 03-28-2020, 05:01 PM   #1
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

Definitely house rule territory here. I love this trait, but like many other traits (Create, Affliction, skill defaults) I barely invest in it because early levels are great but little is gained from later ones. For those I've come up with some nice houserules to help make them better, but not Penetrating Vision. While thinking on better progression methods for it, I realized that being able to see through any amount of matter isn't unreasonable, especially as a super power with Specific. My gut instinct was to make it 50pts to see through anything (it seems to me about as useful as any other 50pt power) but maybe 100pts makes more sense. On the other end of the spectrum, 10pts seems good for 6in, but I might start it at 5pts for 1 in and go up from there.

Thoughts? I'm mostly spitballing here, I really don't know how good (or bad) PV is, just that 6in for 10pts is worth it but not any levels beyond. Thank you ahead of time.
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Old 03-28-2020, 05:48 PM   #2
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Default Re: Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

You could just use the Speed/Range table from B550. Subtract 7 or 8 from the level of Penetrating Vision, read it as Size, and then across to Linear Measurement to find out how deep you can see into/through stuff.

Or go log scale.

Last edited by CeeDub; 03-28-2020 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 03-28-2020, 06:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

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Originally Posted by CeeDub View Post
You could just use the Speed/Range table from B550. Subtract 7 or 8 from the level of Penetrating Vision, read it as Size, and then across to Linear Measurement to find out how deep you can see into/through stuff.

Or go log scale.
I definitely like Speed/Range table and I generalize it for many things, so I might use that for building up to the upper limit. I just don't know where the cut off should be, since it feels like there is a fair price to "can see through anything".
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Old 03-28-2020, 06:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
I definitely like Speed/Range table and I generalize it for many things, so I might use that for building up to the upper limit. I just don't know where the cut off should be, since it feels like there is a fair price to "can see through anything".
Well, what do you think is the most amount of stuff that a PC might want to look through in your setting? Especially with Specific, there is a limit to how much of that one substance could be found in one place. Just eyeball it.
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Old 03-28-2020, 07:46 PM   #5
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Default Re: Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

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Originally Posted by CeeDub View Post
Well, what do you think is the most amount of stuff that a PC might want to look through in your setting? Especially with Specific, there is a limit to how much of that one substance could be found in one place. Just eyeball it.
See my sig ;) That's the thing, I just don't know, especially without Specific. Do I need to make it possible to look through the planet? How many levels would I need to look 'below' the infinite depths of a flatworld that goes down forever? How much do I need to deal with mountains and mountain-sized castles? How long is the longest space station that hasn't yet come up in the campaign?

If there's an upper limit (which there definitely is when you compare other similarly costed traits) that solves basically all those questions, then lesser distance can be grabbed if points or concept deem it so.
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Old 03-28-2020, 09:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

If you are statting Heimdallr or someone with similar powers, I would go with a handful of levels in Penetrating Vision, and Clairvoyance with generous levels of Increased Range. If my math is right, I'd say +180% for seeing anywhere on Earth, +610% for just about anywhere in our galaxy, +770% for anywhere in the observable universe.

Add Reduced Time, Reliable, and Cosmic:NDRR as needed.
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Old 03-28-2020, 09:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

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Originally Posted by CeeDub View Post
You could just use the Speed/Range table from B550. Subtract 7 or 8 from the level of Penetrating Vision, read it as Size, and then across to Linear Measurement to find out how deep you can see into/through stuff.
My preferred method.

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
I definitely like Speed/Range table and I generalize it for many things, so I might use that for building up to the upper limit. I just don't know where the cut off should be, since it feels like there is a fair price to "can see through anything".
The first 6 inches gets you through most interior walls, drapes, and into a body or machine. So useful for Diagnosis, surgery and repair of whatever you have the skills and equipment for and seeing hidden foes. After that its way less useful per level - especially compared to....

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Originally Posted by CeeDub View Post
If you are statting Heimdallr or someone with similar powers, I would go with a handful of levels in Penetrating Vision, and Clairvoyance with generous levels of Increased Range. If my math is right, I'd say +180% for seeing anywhere on Earth, +610% for just about anywhere in our galaxy, +770% for anywhere in the observable universe.

Add Reduced Time, Reliable, and Cosmic:NDRR as needed.
This Clairvoyance is generally way more powerful than Penetrating Vision but Penetrating Vision is much cheaper for a quick look around.
The SSR I think brings them more into line.
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Old 03-28-2020, 10:38 PM   #8
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Default Re: Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeDub View Post
If you are statting Heimdallr or someone with similar powers, I would go with a handful of levels in Penetrating Vision, and Clairvoyance with generous levels of Increased Range. If my math is right, I'd say +180% for seeing anywhere on Earth, +610% for just about anywhere in our galaxy, +770% for anywhere in the observable universe.

Add Reduced Time, Reliable, and Cosmic:NDRR as needed.
For when Clairsentience makes sense, I totally agree, that is a great idea.

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This Clairvoyance is generally way more powerful than Penetrating Vision but Penetrating Vision is much cheaper for a quick look around.
The SSR I think brings them more into line.
Clairvoyance doesn't always make sense with the character concept, so I wanted PV to be usable at long ranges (I also find Clairsentience to be awkward to use and been meaning to look into it further). To actually be able to focus or zoom in on things, Telescopic Vision sounds really handy. Looking over things again, I'm not certain the SS/R table works fast enough. Even at ten levels that's only 30yds. And Clairsentience increases range much faster, using the a step on SS/R at 2.5pts/level (10% increases it by two steps according to Increased Range). Maybe infinite range doesn't quite work (I'm assuming there isn't some way to get Clairsentience infinite range with Malediction 3 and Long Range) so bringing the cost of each step to 2.5pts per level, or 5pts per 2 levels, could work, making it something like 10pts for -6, then +2 every 5pts (2*lvl - 8). Level 1 could even be 3" for 5pts to make it cleaner.

But I don't know if that's too good or even good enough. And you can have something similar with Detect (Long Range 2, Reflexive) for infinite range.
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
And you can have something similar with Detect (Long Range 2, Reflexive) for infinite range.
I ended up using Detect (Reflexive) for a Supers character with Permeation who "flew" through the earth but couldn't pass through metal pipes, rebar foundations, etc. At his flight speed, enough Penetrating Vision to see where he would be each second was very cost-prohibitive.
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Old 03-29-2020, 08:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: Price of Max Penetrating Vision?

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I ended up using Detect (Reflexive) for a Supers character with Permeation who "flew" through the earth but couldn't pass through metal pipes, rebar foundations, etc. At his flight speed, enough Penetrating Vision to see where he would be each second was very cost-prohibitive.
Would Detect: Earth (Reflexive, Long Range 2, No Roll Required) let you know where earth isn't?
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