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Old 06-06-2012, 07:59 PM   #11
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: Rescaling language ability

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
Essentially everything would stay the same in the first three levels for purposes of understanding, but a trace of foreign accent would remain until Native is bought.
I'm not sure your understanding of languages in GURPS is quite right. It's understandable, given the poor choice of names the levels have.


Native doesn't mean "no accent," and Accented doesn't just mean "speaks with an accent." Accented means clear communication but with poor command of idioms and other advanced expressions. You've still got to work at it. Native means complete and effortless command of the language. It doesn't specify whether you have an accent.


I know lots of people who have complete mastery of English, and can understand anything I say immediately, no matter how colloquial the expression, and yet they still have a foreign accent because English is their second language. These people have English at Native level with a quirk, Such-and-such accent. I know other people who usually understand me and can converse at speed with me, but they don't always understand everything I say, and sometimes have to pause to come up with the right word. These have Accented level English.


It would have been better to name the language levels None, Broken, Conversational, and Fluent.
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:06 PM   #12
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Rescaling language ability

My grandmother speaks English with a Mexican Spanish accent, but speaks Spanish with an American English accent. Those are the only two languages she knows.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:22 AM   #13
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Default Re: Rescaling language ability

Ordinarily, scenes of characters being unable to communicate, and being reduced to gestures or reliance on a translator, are not much fun to roleplay, and I don't make a lot of use of them; so knowledge of languages is not of high utility in my campaigns. Given that, I'm not inclined to adopt a set of rules that make it necessary to spend more points to be fully fluent in a language.

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Old 06-07-2012, 08:50 AM   #14
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Rescaling language ability

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Ordinarily, scenes of characters being unable to communicate, and being reduced to gestures or reliance on a translator, are not much fun to roleplay, and I don't make a lot of use of them; so knowledge of languages is not of high utility in my campaigns. Given that, I'm not inclined to adopt a set of rules that make it necessary to spend more points to be fully fluent in a language.
I'm OK with making fully fluent more expensive, but I'd leave conversational proficiency at no more than 2 points and be sure you get something with real practical value at 1. "Accented" is good enough not to actually impede communications, if it costs more to pass for an educated native speaker or be good enough to win poetry contests that's not so bad.
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:07 AM   #15
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Rescaling language ability

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I'm OK with making fully fluent more expensive, but I'd leave conversational proficiency at no more than 2 points and be sure you get something with real practical value at 1.
What on earth is "fully fluent" supposed to be? Is it something different from the normal ability of a native speaker to speak their native language in a way that doesn't create obstacles to communication, expression, or persuasion?

Bill Stoddard
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:23 AM   #16
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Rescaling language ability

The other issue is that everyone has an accent, and most people can't fake other people's well. Its just that in the age of print and broadcast media, the number of accents tends to decline, so foreigners are especially notable. I would not be surprised if faking accents is a skill orthagonal to the number of language you know, so I think that GURPS' approach (p. B24) of making it a technique of Acting or Mimicry (Voice) is a good one.

Someone who learned English in rural Yorkshire is always going to have an accent when they travel to Canada or India!
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:18 AM   #17
malloyd
 
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Default Re: Rescaling language ability

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What on earth is "fully fluent" supposed to be? Is it something different from the normal ability of a native speaker to speak their native language in a way that doesn't create obstacles to communication, expression, or persuasion?
Those are potentially three different levels of ability. Fluent has the same roots as flowing, and is often a synonym of graceful or eloquent. I'd ordinarily consider it a higher level of competence than good enough to communicate without major obstacles. Actually in most contexts I'd consider it a higher level of competence than that of many native speakers, though I might not expect that when used as game technical jargon.
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:21 AM   #18
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Rescaling language ability

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Those are potentially three different levels of ability. Fluent has the same roots as flowing, and is often a synonym of graceful or eloquent. I'd ordinarily consider it a higher level of competence than good enough to communicate without major obstacles. Actually most contexts I'd consider it a higher level of competence than that of many native speakers, though I might not expect that when used as game technical jargon.
I can't see making that a level of language ability. Rather, I'd make it a skill, or a group of skills, or even a Talent. Being able to use language in the way you describe seems to be variously encompassed by Mimicry (to do accents), Public Speaking, Writing, and Poetry (to write in verse). If you wanted to confine it to one language, I'd consider Talent: Fluency (Aspected: Irish Gaelic, -20%) [5/level].

Bill Stoddard

Edit: For comparison, you make an Erotic Art roll for advanced sexual technique, but basic sexual technique is just a DX or HT roll, which anyone can attempt who doesn't have Neutered or Sexless or some comparable disability.

Last edited by whswhs; 06-07-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:40 PM   #19
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Rescaling language ability

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
I have effectively done this with the standard language mechanics by buying Accent perks (PU2, p12). That comes to the the same cost, but makes it more straightforward to deal with some situations.

For example, characters in my campaign are currently alternating between 1720 London, 1962 London, and 1904 Scotland. It's the same basic language with three very different accents. Buying two accent perks for the places that aren't native to them is the obvious way to handle it.
Given that Language Talent in GURPS is not how most people understand a talent for languages, as finding it easy to learn the vocabulary and grammar of a new langauge, but instead to having an easy time becoming able to speak foreign languages with the accent-freedom of a native speaker, it makes no sense that Language Talent doesn't have any effect on the Accent Perks.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:03 AM   #20
malloyd
 
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Default Re: Rescaling language ability

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
If you wanted to confine it to one language, I'd consider Talent: Fluency (Aspected: Irish Gaelic, -20%) [5/level].
That's a pretty idea, stolen. Yeah, I'd prefer skills too, which is why I might not expect that level out of a game technical use of fluent, but I'd still expect it to be above the level you'd need for reliable communication. Having some penalties for using your language dependent skills doesn't prevent playing out normal conversation scenes as ordinary conversations, which is what I'd really want to be cheap to minimize the un-fun roleplaying issues.


Quote:
Edit: For comparison, you make an Erotic Art roll for advanced sexual technique, but basic sexual technique is just a DX or HT roll, which anyone can attempt who doesn't have Neutered or Sexless or some comparable disability.
Eh, Erotic Art has a default, if you're making it a DX roll, you could call it an Erotic Art +5 roll as easily.
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