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Old 06-23-2011, 04:47 PM   #11
Acolyte
 
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

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Because otherwise there's no point to the Corporeal Song of Tongues? :)
I'm not sure I see that.
1) Not every celestial has a Seraph on call (most angels don't, and the one demon-cheat to get celestial resonances works most poorly for Seraphim, as Bal(seraph)s^2 of Fate practically can't open their mouths without dissonance).

2) Seraphic resonance can get shut off temporarily.

3) Seraphic resonance can't make a questioner understand you, so he might answer with something tangential, which even on a high CD might not give you the information you seek (Seraph: "What is your name?" Egyptian Man: "I do not speak English." GM: "With your CD of 6, you learn that this man does not speak any English at all except a song he memorized as a child and knows it is about machines-people that turn into cars and planes and other devices.").

4) Seraphic resonance only pings with raw information on high CDs, so language barriers are still very important on lower CD rolls.

Quote:
What I'm not sure about is whether the Seraph can properly resonate -- whether he/she can properly examine the statement -- if he/she doesn't even know what the statement is or whether a meaningful statement has been made.
Now that IS a good argument. I might say an appropriate thing to do would be a penalty to the CD, like for reading off other media (which would end up making it significantly harder to get any useful information).
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Old 06-23-2011, 05:04 PM   #12
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

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Originally Posted by Rocket Man View Post
What I'm not sure about is whether the Seraph can properly resonate -- whether he/she can properly examine the statement -- if he/she doesn't even know what the statement is or whether a meaningful statement has been made.
I think I see where our difference of opinion is: to me, resonating with the Symphony will always give an answer regardless of the language being used; to you, the language used is a barrier in understanding what that answer means.

Is that right? Correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 06-23-2011, 05:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

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Originally Posted by DBloch2012 View Post
I think I see where our difference of opinion is: to me, resonating with the Symphony will always give an answer regardless of the language being used; to you, the language used is a barrier in understanding what that answer means.

Is that right? Correct me if I am wrong.
It's close enough for Church work. :)

To me, the language used is a barrier in understanding how to "ask the question." Just as a Cherub can't attune to a person he can't touch (except for Laurence's Cherubim), I'm thinking that a Seraph can't resonate on a statement she can't understand. Or, to accomodate Acolyte's suggested approach, that she can't resonate on it well.
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Old 06-23-2011, 09:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

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Originally Posted by Acolyte View Post
Now that IS a good argument. I might say an appropriate thing to do would be a penalty to the CD, like for reading off other media (which would end up making it significantly harder to get any useful information).
I was thinking more in this direction -- that some barriers to "really being there" make it harder to get a good result -- but personally I'd rule that not understanding what is spoken amounts to a penalty so high as to be an automatic zero check digit (though technically a successful performance of resonance).

Other examples of this, I'd rule, would be if the target is whispering something, texting on a phone out of the Seraph's view, or sending messages via Ethereal Tongues while under Seraphic resonance. The resonance is technically WORKING, but not relaying any useful information to the Seraph unless the Seraph's own senses pass along something usable.
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Old 06-23-2011, 10:29 PM   #15
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

Perhaps I just have an incompatible view of what Resonance means.

When I think of a Seraph using their power I imagine infinite strands of little fibers floating through the air to the music of the Symphony. The Seraph then reaches out and touches the strand that concerns the Truth they want to find out in a particular situation. How do they know which one to pick out of the Symphony? Well, they are Seraphim: it's their instinct.

Whether or not the situation involves a language the Seraph does not understand, by virtue of having a Essence the Egyptian is a part of the Symphony. Interacting with the little fiber that represents the Truth of where Sneaky Pete is should not be hindered just because the Seraph does not speak Egyptian. The Symphony is above linguistic concerns.

I guess the problem lies in how this power is used. While language should not be a barrier for the Truth, it does pose a question on whether this power should act as a translator or not.

(False Egyptian Answer) "I do not know who this Pete is that you speak of. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have many things to do."

In the first place, the Seraph would not understand the words so how would he even know to check if the Egyptian is telling the truth or not? Well, it seems he can use his power to "translate" the speech and detect the falsehood of it. In that case, why would Seraphim bother to question at all? They could just whip out this power anytime an interrogation of a PC/NPC is needed. That seems kind of lame.

Here are my thoughts on answers (I changed "know" to "feel" to try to make it less psychic):

1 ....You *feel* whether or not the speaker thinks he is lying.
He thinks he is lying.

2 ....You *feel* the above – and, if the speaker lied, which statement in particular he thinks is most false.
He thinks he is lying - and he knows that his lie is false.

3 ....You *feel* all of the above – and why the speaker chose to lie or to tell the truth as he knows it.
He thinks he is lying - he knows that his lie is false - and he is afraid to tell the truth.

4 ....You *feel* all of the above – and what the speaker believes the truth to be.
He thinks he is lying - he knows that his lie is false - he is afraid to tell the truth - and he believes he knows where Sneaky Pete is.

5 ....You *feel* all of the above – and whether or not the speaker actually knows the Truth.
He thinks he is lying - he knows that his lie is false - he is afraid to tell the truth - he believes he knows where Sneaky Pete is - and he does not actually know the Truth.

6 ....You *feel* all that – and what the Truth really is.
He thinks he is lying - he knows that his lie is false - he is afraid to tell the truth - he believes he knows where Sneaky Pete is - he does not actually know the Truth - and the Truth really is he does not know where Sneaky Pete is (GM Note: because Sneaky Pete is dead!).

I tend to go for a more mystical, feelings-type approach. Each of these rolls (except for maybe the last) would require the PC to fish for more information, but because the language is beyond him it makes communication more frustrating.

This solution is how I would go about reconciling the issue.
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Old 06-24-2011, 09:08 AM   #16
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

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Originally Posted by DBloch2012 View Post
And, unless the Symphony speaks in Egyptian as well, I doubt it will hinder the Seraph's understanding.
You say that like you're sure the Symphony isn't speaking Arabic.

What do you think happened at Babel? It didn't just make everyone there speak a bunch of different languages, it changed the language worked in the Corporeal realm. Without Babel, humans language would be universal, even between groups that had been separated for hundreds of years. Only after Babel do you get linguistic divergence.

Is it such a stretch to believe that this change is included in the Symphony?

Alternately, consider that the Seraph doesn't have a universal view of the Symphony, only related to that which was said. A lie, to a Seraph, is like a dissonant chord, it just sounds wrong. With a high enough CD, the Seraph knows what would make fix the statement, what should have been said to bring the statement into consonance with the subject's heart and with the Symphony. If the statement was in a language the Seraph doesn't understand, then "what should have been said" is also in that language.
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Old 06-24-2011, 12:51 PM   #17
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

Is the Babel event IN canon (such as Eden and the like)? Not every Bible story is IN canon (Noah and the Flood, for example, would radically involve many Superiors and isn't mentioned to my memory).

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With a high enough CD, the Seraph knows what would make fix the statement, what should have been said to bring the statement into consonance with the subject's heart and with the Symphony. If the statement was in a language the Seraph doesn't understand, then "what should have been said" is also in that language.
That's the best reasoning I've seen so far for restricting the attunement by language. Even then, though, on a CD of 6 the angel is accessing a capital-T Truth which has very little to do with what the speaker should have said (barring only that the speaker could have reasonably known the Truth).

Still, it doesn't convince me that I should restrict the attunement--IN has enough restrictions on PCs, with the various dissonance conditions (of which the Seraphic one is a biggie), and I tend to err on the side of letting the PCs have as much power as they can justify.

Would you also restrict the other angelic resonances by language, then? Mercurians and Malakim pull their resonance information straight from their targets in a highly individual way. Does a Mercurian need to know various family member names in a language ("father", "aunt", "brother-in-law") to comprehend the names he gets out of his resonance? Does a Malakite need to know the language of his target to understand what his resonance tells him about past deeds? In both cases, you might say the angel is really resonating on the individual's place in the Symphony, not on the individual in question, but that would invalidate your argument for the Seraphic language dependence as well.

For the record, even narrow interpretation wouldn't restrict Cherubic, Kyriotate, or Ofanite resonances (it doesn't matter what they call a gas station, it's still a gas station to the Ofanite invoking his resonance), and I'm pretty sure Elohim get a pass as well, since feeling someone's feelings doesn't really require the use of words (although they may be language-bound by the "how would they react to ______" bit).
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Old 06-24-2011, 02:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

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Originally Posted by Acolyte View Post
Would you also restrict the other angelic resonances by language, then?
No -- but no other angelic resonance seems to depend on nterpretation of language and meaning the way that a Seraph's does. That to me seems to merit a special case.

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Is the Babel event IN canon (such as Eden and the like)?
Not to date, no -- it gets no mention in the Game Master's Guide timeline, anyway. That said, it's always the GM's option to add events if he thinks they'll make the game interesting.
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Old 06-24-2011, 07:57 PM   #19
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

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You say that like you're sure the Symphony isn't speaking Arabic.
I am sure it's not.

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Originally Posted by gjc8 View Post
Is it such a stretch to believe that this change is included in the Symphony?
Yes.

The Symphony was created by God, not by humans. Therefore, human language should not be what the Symphony uses to communicate.

I do not understand this "human-centric" view of In Nomine. Humans cannot affect the Symphony in any way, shape, or form: they cannot resonate with it, they cannot cause Dissonance with it, they do not make Discord with it.

And yet, you are asking me to believe that a human situation (Tower of Babel) was so important that God had to reshape the entire Symphony just to make them all speak different languages?

He is God. Why doesn't he just handwave it and go, "You all speak different languages now, m'kay?" and be done with it. There is no need to change all Creation to accommodate one small feature in the Corporeal aspect.

On that note, a lot of people also seem to be giving humanity a lot of meaning and purpose where there is none. Such as in the recent Tether thread. What makes humans so special?
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Old 06-24-2011, 09:21 PM   #20
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Default Re: And ye shall know the Truth ...

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Originally Posted by Acolyte View Post
Is the Babel event IN canon (such as Eden and the like)? Not every Bible story is IN canon (Noah and the Flood, for example, would radically involve many Superiors and isn't mentioned to my memory).
I think the Flood is canon - at least, something happened to kill off the Nephilim and many of the Children of the Grigori, and I think the Flood was that "something". (It's also a popular fan excuse to explain why Oannes doesn't have a Cathedral remaining in Heaven, but fan explanations aren't canon.) Of course, like Eden, it didn't necessarily happen the way it was described in the Bible.

Canon is silent about Babel. But I don't know whether that means "it didn't happen" or "it's Canon Doubt and Uncertainty for the GM to fill in if necessary"...
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