Hang Spell: Fireball

[Plane]

M12 "Missile Spells"

At the end of your turn, roll against your skill with the spell
..
On a success, you may invest one or more points of energy in the spell

M128 "Hang Spell"

the roll for the subject spell is not made until it is activated.

Since you don't have to choose whether or not to invest energy in the spell until it succeeds, would that mean you just pay the "minimum 2" energy for Hang Spell to prep a fireball, but that you could never prep a charged (much less enlarged) fireball using Hang Spell?

If that's the case, then would the Concentrate maneuver used to activate the Hang Spell count as its first round of charging and then the 2 rounds after you could Concentrate to Enlarge?

I'm not actually sure if there is a point to this except perhaps that you already made the gestures/words to cast Fireball so that you could merely concentrate to begin prepping it. It doesn't seem to actually help with putting away energy ahead of time since you only seem to be able to store a 0 FP version of the spell that exists pre-roll, since FP can only be spent to charge/enlarge it afterward.

[Anaraxes]

That's one interpretation, perhaps the most literal.

You might also rule that you can pay the costs to charge the Missile spell before hand, and take the roll to "activate" as the one that un-Hangs the spell and leaves the Missile in your hand, ready to throw. This is probably the most popular interpretation.

One workaround to bring the micro-sequence of mechanics of (1) and (2) into line would be to delay the Missile spell "activation" roll until you're done charging it. Charging still takes time, still requires no skill roll, but you don't know whether or not the spell will actually work until you've already dumped all that FP into it.

A third option would just be to houserule that you can't Hang Missile spells.

[Refplace]

I think you Hang the spell then activate it and start charging it as normal. So you can Hang a missile spell but there is no value to it.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I think you Hang the spell then activate it and start charging it as normal. So you can Hang a missile spell but there is no value to it.

Of course it has "value", it's got however many points you initially invested at the point of casting.

What it doesn't have is the following 0-3 turns of charging.

[Plane]

One thing I'm also not sure about Hang Spell is how it works in respect to location. Would a hung missile spell follow around the caster, ready to drop into his hand? Or would it stay where he left it, so if he activated it without being there, it would just drop onto whatever was below it?

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

That's one interpretation, perhaps the most literal.

You might also rule that you can pay the costs to charge the Missile spell before hand, and take the roll to "activate" as the one that un-Hangs the spell and leaves the Missile in your hand, ready to throw. This is probably the most popular interpretation.

Normally, getting to choose whether or not to invest energy into the spell (and if so, how much) until you know whether or not your roll succeeded or failed is a huge advantage for missile spells in respect to other spells, since you can avoid wasting energy compared to other spells where you pay the energy first and THEN roll.

There would normally not be any upsides to spending the energy first and then rolling, but allowing that option clearly gives an advantage for being able to stored a charged (1st second) and perhaps even an expanded (2nd or 3rd second) spell in "Hang Spell" form.

The downside of course being, like any other hang spell, you won't know that it worked until it is un-hung with a concentrate, and if it failed, you wasted your energy.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

One workaround to bring the micro-sequence of mechanics of (1) and (2) into line would be to delay the Missile spell "activation" roll until you're done charging it. Charging still takes time, still requires no skill roll, but you don't know whether or not the spell will actually work until you've already dumped all that FP into it.

Do you mean spend concentrates charging energy immediately after HangSpell+Fireball (sending a charged spell into hung status) or spending concentrates charging/expandnig an uncharged spell immediately before spending a concentrate to activate it?

Originally Posted by Refplace

I think you Hang the spell then activate it and start charging it as normal. So you can Hang a missile spell but there is no value to it.

The only thing I can think is, even if you can't charge it with energy, it will be easier to prep (no ritual requirements, you already did them as you hung it) since you just need a wordless/gestureless Concentrate to bring it forth.

Plus, also I think even if you had no energy later on, if you had a high enough skill level (like 15) to reduce energy cost then when you activated it you could have a 1d6 fireball for free?

That actually makes me think of one potential benefit... if using Ceremonial Magic, you get a skill bonus. I know this skill bonus won't reduce FP cost, but it could make the cost of the spell more reliable. The only thing is that this bonus is based on +20% increments and 1 extra energy is like infinite percent of a 0 FP spell...

Missile Spells would be a lot easier to understand if before rolling there was a basic 1 FP cost, then I'd know spending 2 FP on it as ceremonial magic would give it a +5 bonus and make it go off very reliably.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Of course it has "value", it's got however many points you initially invested at the point of casting.

What it doesn't have is the following 0-3 turns of charging.

M12 says "On your fourth turn, you may only attack or hold." In the preceding paragraphs "next turn" is turn 2 and "turn after that" is turn 3.

So it sounds like the first turn is when you:

1) cast spell
2) roll to see if it worked
3) if it succeeds, invest energy ("charge")

Then you could "enlarge" it 0-2 times, which wouldn't necessarily have to be immediately after that (ie you could charge it, rest 2 minutes to restore 1 FP, enlarge it, rest another 2 minutes, then enlarge it, etc.

The main thing seems to be that you're limited to 1 charge / 2 enlarge, so you couldn't, even though someone with Magery 2 could make a 6d6 fireball, do 6 turns of charging 1 fp each time, ti would have to be 3 turns of 2 fp each time.

Given the usual effects of critical success (no FP cost) or normal failure (1 FP if it would have cost energy, 0 FP if it wouldn't) or crit failure (spend "full" energy cost) if rolling is done before energy investing it makes missile spells very low risk.

Invest-then-roll would make it more like other spells than the as-written roll-then-invest. It would also create a few strategies:

1) invest the minimum 1 FP in case it crit fails, but lessen your max damage (only for Magery 2+, 1 is the most you can invest in the 1st second with Magery 1)
2) invest the max FP (equal to magery) to maximize potential damage, but risk losing more if it crit fails