GURPS Mass Combat out

[hal]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

Did you read their description? I know I did when I saw that. They have bows.

That figures. You're right. I never expected to see medium cavalry as being armed with bows. Catiphract style cav perhaps? I was thinking more along the lines of of the non-noble cavalry of the early middle ages for some odd reason.

[giganerds]

Yesterday I bought it, print, and start to read. For the first look glance it's amazing! Great work David! Thanks. :-)

Tonight I will try some simulations!

[Pomphis]

Some questions:

3e Mass Combat has a rule to add missile weapons to troops usually without them. I cannot find such a rule. Is that deliberate ? If I want MedInf or HvCav with crossbows, what do I do ? Would this just add F to class and increase costs (and how much ?), or also raise TS ?

Flying Cavalry is Air, F but not Rec. Is that deliberate ? I would consider that to be one of the first jobs for it. Especially as both Flying Infantry and Flying Mages are Rec. If I add it, would that raise costs ? How much ?

Any ideas how much TS magical flying ships might have ?

For fantasy races we have only Ogres. How was TS 8 calculated ? Is there some formula behind this as it was the case in 3e ?

[twitchew]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

I can definitely see the potential for supplements - in particular, Mass Combat of the future seems like it could use some more fleshing out. I wouldn't mind a companion piece designed to work alongside the upcoming Spaceships supplements "Warships and Space Pirates" and "Fighters, Carriers, and Mecha" in order to address elements such as the space forces (as distinct from aerospace forces, but roughly analogous to naval forces) and mecha armies (which would range from Battletech-style ground forces through Gundam-style aerospace forces and possibly even to Robotech-style dual-purpose forces).

I have to say i would also like to see this added as a supplement (ultra tech armies and a meshing with spaceships supplements). The battle of Endor very much comes to mind (as a member of the 501st I REALLY want to play this one out!)

(or an extra couple of lists of armies in a pyramid article for things that got left out and those of us that lack imagination. I just want to see a Dalek v. Sontaran v. Cyberman throw down. (given the results from canary wharf the cybermen are not much more effective than kittens)

[OldSam]

After roughly reading through it I must say that I really like what's in there! :)

Question to the chapter about sieges:
There are some sample values for Defense Boni but I'd really like to have a table with some more specific entries for the most common fortifications along with their $-costs and their typical building time.
Is there something like this available or planned?

Would be very nice if a player decides to fortify an position himself, or even when anyone only asks about the possibilities / costs of such an operation. (to estimate if the results are worth the costs and if it can be done in time)

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by OldSam

After roughly reading through it I must say that I really like what's in there! :)

Question to the chapter about sieges:
There are some sample values for Defense Boni but I'd really like to have a table with some more specific entries for the most common fortifications along with their $-costs and their typical building time.
Is there something like this available or planned?

Would be very nice if a player decides to fortify an position himself, or even when anyone only asks about the possibilities / costs of such an operation. (to estimate if the results are worth the costs and if it can be done in time)

I don't know, but I would be very surprised if this was not covered in LOW TECH or a related work by one of the LT authors. I know there were areas (such as this) that were considered out of bounds for me . . .

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Pomphis

Some questions:

3e Mass Combat has a rule to add missile weapons to troops usually without them. I cannot find such a rule. Is that deliberate ? If I want MedInf or HvCav with crossbows, what do I do ? Would this just add F to class and increase costs (and how much ?), or also raise TS ?

Flying Cavalry is Air, F but not Rec. Is that deliberate ? I would consider that to be one of the first jobs for it. Especially as both Flying Infantry and Flying Mages are Rec. If I add it, would that raise costs ? How much ?

Any ideas how much TS magical flying ships might have ?

For fantasy races we have only Ogres. How was TS 8 calculated ? Is there some formula behind this as it was the case in 3e ?

[1] In general the troop classes are based on how the troops *fight and deploy* rather than how they are armored, with armor levels represented by equipment quality. So to have heavy armored cavalry that fire crossbows, you'd take horse archers or medium cavalry and add the best equipment and training quality (representing this).

[2] Rec primarily refers primarily to ability to sneak about on the ground (cf. the definition referring to land units) something flying cavalry can't do, esp. since (unlike some high-tech vehicle recon elements) it lacks dismount troops and sensors. Note that Air superiority *does* give a bonus for the reconnaissance contest, so having flying cav will give you a big advantage. The flying infantry and mages are just better for sneaking about...

[3] Magical flying ships should be treated as an airship or flying leviathan.

[4] "Ogres" is not a specific racial category (e.g., DF Ogres) but a general term that can represent lots of different humanoid monster races depending on the quality and equipment level. When coupled with Beasts, Giant Monsters, Flying Infantry you can actually represent many races.

[5] TS for Ogres was calculated the same way I calculated all other numbers, i.e., based on analysis of their fighting capability, a few mathematical formula, and some playtesting to see what worked.

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by hal

That figures. You're right. I never expected to see medium cavalry as being armed with bows. Catiphract style cav perhaps? I was thinking more along the lines of of the non-noble cavalry of the early middle ages for some odd reason.

Nobles and non-nobles would be heavy cavalry: the distinction in the troop types is based on how they fought, not their armor level (which is Equipment Quality).

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

As one of the playtesters involved in this project I spent literally days working on different angles for battles, the system had to be next to perfect! I knew with some of the other playtesters involved that I wouldn't have to worry about historical reenactments, so I did..umm odd things. The Big Monster battle was mine and I have to say I was apprehensive about posting it! I am glad it made it in (even as a box)

All in all I love this friggen book and I wish we could have playtested it even more, and as a note, if you looking for squad level tactical wargaming STAY clear of this book. This is IMHO a perfect product for the GM who wants massive battles but wants to avoid the combat bog down that tends to accompany that with other more complex systems (chainmail. I am looking at you)

And David if I didn't say it enough during the playtest, I am going to say it here you did a helluva job on this little book!

Ghostdancer

Thanks! Very pleased you enjoy it. I appreciated your own input as well. Glad you found the note on big monsters... you and several other of the playtesters were very helpful!

I don't think SJ Games has done a tactical figure wargame for GURPS, perhaps due the troubles with Hot Lead (I did the brief "Arm of Decision" rules for GURPS Traveller back in 2000, but that's about it.).

[David L Pulver]

Originally Posted by hal

I liked the material in GURPS MASS COMBAT and I have to say that initially I was impressed. I look forward to utilizing it for my own campaigns because this is the type of thing that got good use when I had GURPS 3e.

I do however, have two questions for anyone to answer... perhaps even David :)

In the table, it lists on page 17, that Medium Cavalry have the code Cv,F.

Was this a mistake? I checked the TL and saw it at TL and thought "Ok, probably a misprint"

The second question has to do with a closer look at the "examples" given for the TL 0-5 throughout the booklet. I noted that the rules specify that Strykland has a force with 20 elements worth a total of 120 points. 9 of those points are Archers, and 25 of those points are Heavy Cavalry. That works out to about 2 Hvy Cav elements and 3 bowmen elements, leaving me with 15 elements to try and determine their "aspects" if you will.

That is when I discovered something that didn't make sense to me. Per the information on page 9, it states that Impetious troops have certain bonuses and penalties for the commander depending upon what the commander's choice is for the combat round. Ok, makes sense as written. But then there was the rule that if your impetious troops make up 10% or more of the troops by either troop numbers or by TS value, that certain rules are put into effect. To wit, if the Commander choses either of All-out-attack, attack, or raid, he gains a +1 bonus to his strategy roll. However, any other option chosen results in the commander having to make a Leadership roll at -1 per 10% of the force that are impetuous. If Sir Richard's forces are such that 37.5 TS points are Impetuous, and he only has 75.5 TS points for his force, we have 37.5/75.5 or 49% of his TS as impetuous troops! Poor Sir Richard has to make a Leadership roll at -4 (minimum) or -5 or suffer a -2 to his Strategy roll.

This was left out of the example given for the battle turns. Was this an oversight or am I mis-reading the rules?

One question that popped into my mind while reading...

What is the TS value for Demonic creatures? ;)

Medium Cavalry: see the description. E.g., byzantine cavalry.

The example is simplified. We can assume poor Sir Richard made his roll...

TS of demonics: Depends on the demon quality. As per rules you take Flying Infantry (which explictly covers demons) or another fantasy type: flying mages, ogres, beasts, whatever gives an appropriate statistic. Then you modify them as needed - either with improved Troop quality or with Super Soldier as appropriate. For example, a balrog is probably a Giant with the highest Troop Quality and the Hero element or Super Soldier options.