GURPS Mass Combat out

David L Pulver · 01-09-2009, 12:14 AM

Micro Designer Notes

GURPS Mass Combat was first outlined almost exactly two years ago. I came up with a basic outline for the project in about a day of frantic brainstorming. Kromm liked it, made numerous useful suggestions, and, months later, it began to move toward fruition. It's been quite a while since I actually got a chance to do some serious military research, and I enjoyed catching up on recent scholarship (some listed in the book's bibliography).

One of the key decisions made mid-way through the process was to move away from the "everything in one single roll" to a round-by-round approach with gradual casualties and the option to choose and vary battle strategies (like combat maneuvers). This also increases the roleplaying element, as you can be a hard-ass commander who orders all out attacks which increase the chance of success, but also increase casualties on your own side. Or try various trick maneuvers that benefit if you have the skill to pull them off, but will probably end in disaster if you don't, fight defensively, etc. The idea is to make mass combat a fairly tense, fast-paced part of the game where players can make real decisions that affect their troops.

These are coupled with an initial recon phase (which also encourages PC involvement) and which also allow light troops and recon elements to shine. A significant rules element is the integration of terrain types into reconnaissance: the closer the terrain, the more likely a battle will turn into a suprirse or ambush (usually disadvantaging without side had worse recon). Some troop types do better when the fight is a surprise or quick encounter battle; others, like heavy artillery, are much better in a pitched battle.

Kromm also emphasized the importance of keeping PCs front and center in the battle even if they weren't commanding the forces, and that led to rules for heroic actions (and disasters) in which even minor PCs can get involved. This particular rule encourage a bit more narrativism than is usual in GURPS, encouraging players to explain how their characters may get caught up in "for want of a nail" situations, but I think it works well.

I'd like to praise the playtesters of Mass Combat, who really put the system through its paces. Although fights featured everything from wizards to modern troops vs. giant monsters, particularly useful were the several historical refights, which ran from Kadesh (Egypt, 1274 BC) to 73 Easting (Iraq, 1991), which let me check historical results against the numbers. This was not only one of the more useful playtests, it was also fun! Thanks again!

JMason · 01-09-2009, 12:25 AM

Very interesting. I was going to pass up Mass Combat, but after reading this, I think I might get it (once I get a little $).

Thanks for the insight.

damon · 01-09-2009, 01:00 AM

looking forward to picking this up when i have a chance.. 50 pages!! that's more than I was expecting, and that is generally good.
The single roll mechanic was a bit unsatisfying for commanding PCs.
One thing that I'd really like to see (may be in there, may be not, not sure as have not read) is guidelines for actual round by round combat in the fray of battle... ideas of what would be going on around PCs in various situations if you want to get some actual combat in, because for some people that's a lot more fun!

griffin · 01-09-2009, 04:29 AM

[QUOTE=David L Pulver]Micro Designer Notes

Will there be designers notes in the next appropriate edition of Pyramid?

Sanity · 01-09-2009, 04:41 AM

Just got it and read through it. VERY nice work.

It is still abstract and simple, but not so "ignorant" (without wanting to be insulting) as the old one. This one mostly ignored a lot of things. I am more than happy to see the notes on "not just on a field" battles (amphybical, sieges) as well as the round based new system.

Seems to be an awesome work. Want to test it ;)

Der Wanderer · 01-09-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David L Pulver

[...]from wizards to modern troops vs. giant monsters[...]

Does this mean we can also have Individual PC (or small group of PCs) vs gigantic army? Like in Chronicles of the Black Moon, where the heroes walk through armies... Or heroes vs. army of sentient rats?

Lupo · 01-09-2009, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

Does this mean we can also have Individual PC (or small group of PCs) vs gigantic army? Like in Chronicles of the Black Moon, where the heroes walk through armies... Or heroes vs. army of sentient rats?

I guess you could, but unless the PCs are tremendously powerful, the battle would be over soon... and if they are that powerful they'd probably prefer to game the full battle (or part of it) in detail.

Mass Combat Rules are very nice but it's more fun if you "actually" use your powerful Cone of Fire, or your Extra attacks and Chi feats, to wipe out dozens of foes, rather than abstracting the whole process in a couple of die rolls...

Talisar · 01-09-2009, 08:32 AM

I love the new Mass Combat rules. Kudos, Mr. Pulver. Up to now my group was using the old 3rd Edition rules for deciding how large battles went.

I noticed that the old "Battle Skill" rules for personal glory and quick-and-dirty ways of determining battlefield injuries seems to have gone by the wayside.

Was that deemed inappropriate for the updated mass combat rules?

Der Wanderer · 01-09-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lupo

I guess you could, but unless the PCs are tremendously powerful, the battle would be over soon... and if they are that powerful they'd probably prefer to game the full battle (or part of it) in detail.

Mass Combat Rules are very nice but it's more fun if you "actually" use your powerful Cone of Fire, or your Extra attacks and Chi feats, to wipe out dozens of foes, rather than abstracting the whole process in a couple of die rolls...

Look here
What do you reckon happens when the "heroes" (top picture front) engage the evil armada (army top picture in the background, middle and bottom picture)... ;)

entitivity · 01-09-2009, 08:41 AM

I've been looking forward to reading Mass Combat for some time now and it looks really cool thus far.

I recognize that Mass Combat is not meant to be a war game, but I would love to see rules that explicitly use a simplified version of GURPS tactical combat. I think it would be awesome to give my players a tactical battle map on which they can move around their forces to this or that effect.

01-09-2009, 12:14 AM	#1
David L Pulver AlienAbductee Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: In the UFO	GURPS Mass Combat out Micro Designer Notes GURPS Mass Combat was first outlined almost exactly two years ago. I came up with a basic outline for the project in about a day of frantic brainstorming. Kromm liked it, made numerous useful suggestions, and, months later, it began to move toward fruition. It's been quite a while since I actually got a chance to do some serious military research, and I enjoyed catching up on recent scholarship (some listed in the book's bibliography). One of the key decisions made mid-way through the process was to move away from the "everything in one single roll" to a round-by-round approach with gradual casualties and the option to choose and vary battle strategies (like combat maneuvers). This also increases the roleplaying element, as you can be a hard-ass commander who orders all out attacks which increase the chance of success, but also increase casualties on your own side. Or try various trick maneuvers that benefit if you have the skill to pull them off, but will probably end in disaster if you don't, fight defensively, etc. The idea is to make mass combat a fairly tense, fast-paced part of the game where players can make real decisions that affect their troops. These are coupled with an initial recon phase (which also encourages PC involvement) and which also allow light troops and recon elements to shine. A significant rules element is the integration of terrain types into reconnaissance: the closer the terrain, the more likely a battle will turn into a suprirse or ambush (usually disadvantaging without side had worse recon). Some troop types do better when the fight is a surprise or quick encounter battle; others, like heavy artillery, are much better in a pitched battle. Kromm also emphasized the importance of keeping PCs front and center in the battle even if they weren't commanding the forces, and that led to rules for heroic actions (and disasters) in which even minor PCs can get involved. This particular rule encourage a bit more narrativism than is usual in GURPS, encouraging players to explain how their characters may get caught up in "for want of a nail" situations, but I think it works well. I'd like to praise the playtesters of Mass Combat, who really put the system through its paces. Although fights featured everything from wizards to modern troops vs. giant monsters, particularly useful were the several historical refights, which ran from Kadesh (Egypt, 1274 BC) to 73 Easting (Iraq, 1991), which let me check historical results against the numbers. This was not only one of the more useful playtests, it was also fun! Thanks again! __________________ Is love like the bittersweet taste of marmalade on burnt toast? Last edited by David L Pulver; 01-09-2009 at 12:47 PM. Reason: fixed date of 73 easting

01-09-2009, 12:25 AM	#2
JMason Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cockeysville, MD	Re: GURPS Mass Combat out Very interesting. I was going to pass up Mass Combat, but after reading this, I think I might get it (once I get a little $). Thanks for the insight. __________________ --- My Blog: Dice and Discourse - My adventures in GURPS and thoughts on table top RPGs.

01-09-2009, 01:00 AM	#3
damon Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: London, Ontario	Re: GURPS Mass Combat out looking forward to picking this up when i have a chance.. 50 pages!! that's more than I was expecting, and that is generally good. The single roll mechanic was a bit unsatisfying for commanding PCs. One thing that I'd really like to see (may be in there, may be not, not sure as have not read) is guidelines for actual round by round combat in the fray of battle... ideas of what would be going on around PCs in various situations if you want to get some actual combat in, because for some people that's a lot more fun! __________________ ..my campaign..

01-09-2009, 04:29 AM	#4
griffin Join Date: Jul 2005	Re: GURPS Mass Combat out [QUOTE=David L Pulver]Micro Designer Notes Will there be designers notes in the next appropriate edition of Pyramid? __________________ James (aka griffin) Stuff I'd like to see in Pyramid Griffin's Claw - fantasy Special Ops team

01-09-2009, 04:41 AM	#5
Sanity Join Date: Aug 2007	Re: GURPS Mass Combat out Just got it and read through it. VERY nice work. It is still abstract and simple, but not so "ignorant" (without wanting to be insulting) as the old one. This one mostly ignored a lot of things. I am more than happy to see the notes on "not just on a field" battles (amphybical, sieges) as well as the round based new system. Seems to be an awesome work. Want to test it ;)

01-09-2009, 08:32 AM	#8
Talisar Join Date: Jan 2009	Re: GURPS Mass Combat out I love the new Mass Combat rules. Kudos, Mr. Pulver. Up to now my group was using the old 3rd Edition rules for deciding how large battles went. I noticed that the old "Battle Skill" rules for personal glory and quick-and-dirty ways of determining battlefield injuries seems to have gone by the wayside. Was that deemed inappropriate for the updated mass combat rules?

01-09-2009, 08:41 AM	#10
entitivity Join Date: Sep 2006	Re: GURPS Mass Combat out I've been looking forward to reading Mass Combat for some time now and it looks really cool thus far. I recognize that Mass Combat is not meant to be a war game, but I would love to see rules that explicitly use a simplified version of GURPS tactical combat. I think it would be awesome to give my players a tactical battle map on which they can move around their forces to this or that effect.