Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip > The Fantasy Trip: House Rules

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-15-2018, 01:13 PM   #1
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Best wish production

Assuming a Goblin wizard with ST 8, DX 9 and a +5 DX Aided we get the following results.

IQ 17 wizards got an average of 12.3407 wishes

IQ 18 wizards got an average of 17.249 wishes

IQ 19 wizards got an average of 21.9519 wishes

IQ 20 wizards got an average of 25.2035 wishes

IQ 21 wizards got an average of 28.0956 wishes

IQ 22 wizards got an average of 28.7816 wishes

IQ 23 wizards got an average of 28.8511 wishes

IQ 24 wizards got an average of 28.9605 wishes

So IQ 22 hits 29 wishes for an 39 attribute caster which is by the book 4,300 XP character who took about eight years of adventuring (game time) to develop.

I'll need to work up the additional investment for all the other stuff that gets broken on failures to establish a fair price.
__________________
-HJC

Last edited by hcobb; 11-15-2018 at 01:26 PM.
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 01:40 PM   #2
TippetsTX
 
TippetsTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: North Texas
Default Re: Best wish production

All this does is to reinforce my decision to significantly reduce the availability and impact of 'wishes' in my version of TFT.

Wishes should be something rare and special, not to mention hard to earn.
__________________
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos
TippetsTX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2018, 01:56 PM   #3
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Best wish production

Suggestion: On the summon demon DX roll if you roll exactly 5 (charms don't help) the demon doesn't appear but grants one wish. Four is two wishes and three is three wishes. Each caster can only make one attempt a day to summon demons. There is no other way to manufacture wishes.

Using wishes is very easy. Just read off the carefully prepared standard text in the Sorcerer's tongue and roll 2/IQ.
Add one die for each of the following:
* You don't know the Sorcerer's tongue.
* You're not using a script.
* Your wish is non-standard.
* You are dying or otherwise unable to speak out your wish.

etc...
__________________
-HJC

Last edited by hcobb; 11-15-2018 at 02:15 PM.
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 02:26 PM   #4
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Best wish production

Other options for limiting wishes.

Summon Demon summons demons from one small group. Once you've mined out that group you need to research a new variation to target a different group. If you share your variation with the Wizard's Guild then they'll give you one wish, but quickly bit mine that group to extinction.
__________________
-HJC
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 02:40 PM   #5
TippetsTX
 
TippetsTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: North Texas
Default Re: Best wish production

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Other options for limiting wishes.

Summon Demon summons demons from one small group. Once you've mined out that group you need to research a new variation to target a different group. If you share your variation with the Wizard's Guild then they'll give you one wish, but quickly bit mine that group to extinction.
I think the key to limiting wishes will be the GM gradually revealing the unintended consequences of dealing with demonic forces. All transactions have a cost and balance must be maintained.

For example (as shared in another thread), in order to grant a wish for riches might require the demon to go out and kill some rich guy and steal his stuff which would make the wisher responsible for the death and could lead to them being hunted by the rich guy's family. That seems more like how a demon would operate to me.

See also, premises from the movies Wish Upon and The Box
__________________
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos
TippetsTX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 04:53 PM   #6
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Best wish production

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
I think the key to limiting wishes will be the GM gradually revealing the unintended consequences of dealing with demonic forces.
Yes, this became a theme in our TFT campaign even for exploiting various other types of magic or even mundane power dynamics. Our players never got into demon summoning, but even if they could, they would probably have expected our GMs to personalize the experience in interesting ways that would make the endeavor something you should expect serious risk and consequence from. But even if the PCs never do it, it's fun and useful to figure out if/when the NPC wizards in the world are doing it, and what the situation is.

We've been over several possibilities on these forums over the last few months, and I think there are countless interesting ways to do it, so I kind of like how genericly the rules present demons, though I think it could use a sentence along the lines of "why wizards don't mass produce wishes isn't common knowledge, and even demonologists don't know all the reasons why this spell isn't more commonly used. Each GM may want to consider what may or may not happen if and when wizards start to over-use the spell."

Some of my favorite ideas include:

* Demons vary widely in stats and abilities. (GURPS Magic has some fairly nice random demon generation tables which could be adapted to TFT and/or used for inspiration.) Some may have rather higher resistance to a battle of wills than expected, and/or have other unpleasant tricks.

* Some or all Greater Demons can't grant spells as described, though they may have some magic abilities and can try to do things to grant your wishes by doing things.

* Demons may hold grudges against wizards who extract wishes or otherwise abuse them, and may prepare surprises for them.

* Demons who have been summoned may re-appear later not under control of the caster, and/or bring friends, and/or astral project to haunt/torment a resented summoner, and/or do other mischief.

* The GM might develop the plane of existence the Demons exist on and have the demons be individuals with various wants, needs, abilities, allies, enemies, politics, etc., and the more you summon them, the more that stuff becomes relevant in one way or another.

Another example:
If you invoke a Greater Demon-Wish for an increased attribute, the Demon divines where there is an attribute adder magic item, and goes and gets it. If it's worn or carried by someone, the demon may need to fight, kill, or remove their arm, to get it and bring it to the wisher. They tend to pick items as near to the wisher as possible, and if someone who lost such an item makes such a wish, they tend to go back to the same item. This interestingly makes such items a bit dangerous to carry around...

Last edited by Skarg; 11-16-2018 at 05:03 PM.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 05:18 PM   #7
TippetsTX
 
TippetsTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: North Texas
Default Re: Best wish production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
We've been over several possibilities on these forums over the last few months, and I think there are countless interesting ways to do it, so I kind of like how genericly the rules present demons, though I think it could use a sentence along the lines of "why wizards don't mass produce wishes isn't common knowledge, and even demonologists don't know all the reasons why this spell isn't more commonly used. Each GM may want to consider what may or may not happen if and when wizards start to over-use the spell."
Here's mine... demons want to be summoned by foolish wizards because they want out of their dimensional prison. Every wish they grant will contain some element that will eventually help to free themselves.
__________________
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos
TippetsTX is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 06:05 PM   #8
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Best wish production

Here's my setup.

The entire goblin city under the mountain has a column every other hex. The only cleared megahex is the one pentagram in the local branch of the Wizard's Guild.

Nothing expensive is in even a straight line from that megahex. The demon will only chew through two (of 48) inches of the first column in the minute he has.

So in exchange for five years of the wizard's salary to build him up we get 30 wishes. That's $700/week for five years or $175,000 which is $6k per wish.

"Mother!"

Helianthodae put aside her book. It was the slightly embellished tale of the exploits of a Goblin hero of four centuries previously. There were more recent tales, but she dared not ask for them. She must not allow into her mind any memories concerning living being who dwelt outside the columns of the narrow city.

She rose from her chair and greeted her daughter. "Hello, my little Asteraceae, how was school today?"

"It was boring low level spells. Who'd ever bother with Light?"

"I drove away a demon with a Light spell two years ago."

"Really?"

"Would a Goblin ever lie? I cast it on his nose and he vanished. They really hate having spells cast on them."

"It's your turn tonight, isn't it?"

"Yes. If I'm not back by morning please be strong for your father."

"I wish I had a wish!"

"Whatever for? Don't we already get the best our city has to offer?"

"I'd wish you'd be safe tonight."

"It doesn't work like that. Wishes don't work against demons."

"Then I'd wish you back to life."

"Don't worry, the guild will do that anyway, if they can. If they do the woman who returns will be only a shadow of the mother you remember. It could take a decade for me to regain my full abilities."
__________________
-HJC

Last edited by hcobb; 11-16-2018 at 08:11 PM.
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2018, 09:40 AM   #9
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Best wish production

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
Here's mine... demons want to be summoned by foolish wizards because they want out of their dimensional prison. Every wish they grant will contain some element that will eventually help to free themselves.
This might seem to ring true, since the Demons are said to have magical powers they mostly can't use in this plane. So when a wizard summons theme to this plane, that weakens their confinement to their plane, and when a wizard tries to elicit a Wish from them, it weakens the prohibition on their using magic in this plane. When they do finally break those bonds, they could have their old-TFT IQ 16-20, and be wizards.


Another twist on this: If you lose the contest of wills to get a wish from them, their attack on you isn't actually about trying to kill you. They're trying to overpower you so they can possess your body! On a double failure that seems to blast you to dust, they've fully succeeded and teleported you away.

A way a GM could play this out:

In order to elicit a wish, a wizard must stand in front of the Demon and not be separated by a pentagram, nor have a Spell Shield on.

If the demon wins both contests of wills, both the wizard and the Demon vanish and the spectators may assume the wizard was blasted to dust. Really the Demon was able to possess the Wizard and then teleport away immediately.

If the demon wins only the first contest of wills, he may kill the wizard in an attempt to have that wizard weaker if/when he gets Revived and loses attributes and then tries to get more wishes.

But if the Demon judges it likely to succeed, he may try to capture the wizard instead, by getting the wizard in HTH, pinning the wizard, and then teleporting away to a remote location with the wizard as a carried item.

If that happens, the wizard will then have another small amount of time (GM discretion) at that location to try to escape (fat chance breaking the pin, but spells can be cast in HTH at -6).

If the wizard fails to escape and is still pinned, the Demon gets a chance to forcibly possess the wizard (contest of wills).

If the demon fails to possess the wizard, he will release the wizard at that remote location, and perhaps offer to teleport the wizard someplace else if he's willing to try another battle of wills, again with possession at stake.

How the possession works exactly would be up to the GM. e.g. can the demon now cast spells it knows or use other magic abilities it couldn't use before, and what are they? Can the demon use the wizard's spells, talents, and memories? Can the demon still teleport at will? Can the demon ever assume its demon form again? Can it do so and still retain its magic abilities on this plane? Can the wizard ever be re-possessed or de-possessed? What happens if another wizard casts Possession on the demon-possessed wizard? What happens if a wizard casts Possession on a demon itself?
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2018, 08:13 PM   #10
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Best wish production

My initial guess population dynamics gives one in 2000 Goblins are born to be a demon summoner.

If they do one summoning per week (and recharge mana the rest of the time) then that's $10k per week against an expected payroll of $200k. Sending the select few to a community focused on demon summoning gives a local population of 100 with the summoners left with no idea of the current locations of their childhood friends so this can't be read from them.

That's then two dozen wizards (mostly apprentices, with only 3 or 4 qualified summoners), two dozen guards, a half dozen in administration and the other half in support trades. These are then supported by a half dozen or so outlying villages and trade with the Goblin kingdom.
__________________
-HJC
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.